Nutrient export

FiberglassMonkey

Premium Member
Still in the building stage of my reef and trying to decide my nutrient export method. Tank and sump volume will be about 60 gallons and will be a heavy sps mixed reef. Also i like to feed my fish.  What does everyone prefer and why? I have a vertex 150 skimmer. My sump doesn't have a fuge section. I have the equipment for a recirculating biopellet reactor or algae reactor. I will run gfo with either method and plan on water changes every 2 weeks. An algae scrubber could work if I could make it fit my space. So many choices...Thanks in advance
 
Is this a frag tank or will you have live rock and a dsb? Personally I'm a huge algae scrubber fan. DIY they are pretty versatile and after extended periods the tanks can become too sterile creating pod and clean up crew die off... Though honestly, I've always seen algae scrubbers as temporary because of maintenance issuesHere is a good article on the downside of GFO; http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2012/2/chemistry I like this article to illustrate the negative on an algae reactor- they are awesome over priced ideals that are breakable; https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/do-algae-reactors-work-and-worth-it.310047/ And I've heard too many biopellet seeping toxics back into the aquarium - they seem over priced and temporary.
 
It's a display tank. 30x24x18 with rock and 1.5in sand bed. I have had great success with biopellets but was thinking of other options. I have read that algae reactor post a couple of time and i like the idea of a more natural way to reduce nutrients. The ats could work but to diy one to fit my area would be difficult. Also that's a good read on gfo. I never had issues in the past running it 24-7.
 
I'm personally not a fan of GFO but many others have run it short term to lower Po4 when it gets out of control. In a tank that size you can probably get away with just water changes and a good skimmer. Water changes aren't the most efficient method of nutrient control but it works. My personal preference is a fuge or "reactor" for those with limited space. I don't think one is better over the other barring any hardware issues.
 
I love my ATS, the thing grows algae like crazy!  Yes, I agree that they are quite pricey, but if you keep looking, quality used ones pop up for sale periodically.  I got a really good deal on mine (would never have paid new prices for one).  I also still grow cheato in my fuge to sort of give nutrients the one-two punch.
 
I have to disagree with you Michael V. Water changes are likely the best nutrient exporter. The reason we use all these other mechanisms is on the larger tanks water changes can get really expensive... I think all these mechanisms work to some degree. Problem is they really are only about 80-90% efficient and nothing is ever going to get 100% - short of starting with new RODI saltwater.We know what new water means - starting the nitrogen cycle all over again - it shouldn't be the goal.For example I see in a lot of advanced tanks almost no remaining clean up crew - I see the remnants where they once were and maybe a turbo snail or a hermit. There isn't enough algae (food) to sustain them. Which I think if you look at the fauna in a DSB there isn't much there either. We teach or are taught fresh water has high nutrients whereas Marine Environments are "sterile" - which we all know nowadays is not true. It is simply the Marine Environment is huge and everything is fighting for those limited nutrients. There are studies that show corals (some) grow more rapidly in nutrient saturated environments - hence nitrate and calcium dosing. We don't want an environment with 20ppm ammonia. We want an environment with .0000001ppm ammonia. Where our environment is so kickass at eating the ammonia it's hard to find. Sulfur occurs naturally in a marine environment from the decomposition of organisms. We get rid of it with high water flow. Sulfur can create a lot of really bad stuff in your tank. Problem with bioballs etc is eventually they will store minerals and nutrients (sulfur or something similar)  In my opinion closed environments are ALWAY bad.  I can easily take an algae scrubber remove the algae discard it and add it back... It's also cheap!
 
Posted by: BrianC I have to disagree with you Michael V. Water changes are likely the best nutrient exporter. The reason we use all these other mechanisms is on the larger tanks water changes can get really expensive... I think all these mechanisms work to some degree. Problem is they really are only about 80-90% efficient and nothing is ever going to get 100% - short of starting with new RODI saltwater.We know what new water means - starting the nitrogen cycle all over again - it shouldn't be the goal.For example I see in a lot of advanced tanks almost no remaining clean up crew - I see the remnants where they once were and maybe a turbo snail or a hermit. There isn't enough algae (food) to sustain them. Which I think if you look at the fauna in a DSB there isn't much there either. We teach or are taught fresh water has high nutrients whereas Marine Environments are "sterile" - which we all know nowadays is not true. It is simply the Marine Environment is huge and everything is fighting for those limited nutrients. There are studies that show corals (some) grow more rapidly in nutrient saturated environments - hence nitrate and calcium dosing. We don't want an environment with 20ppm ammonia. We want an environment with .0000001ppm ammonia. Where our environment is so kickass at eating the ammonia it's hard to find. Sulfur occurs naturally in a marine environment from the decomposition of organisms. We get rid of it with high water flow. Sulfur can create a lot of really bad stuff in your tank. Problem with bioballs etc is eventually they will store minerals and nutrients (sulfur or something similar)  In my opinion closed environments are ALWAY bad.  I can easily take an algae scrubber remove the algae discard it and add it back... It's also cheap! said:
I agree with you, water changes of sufficient size are an effective method of nutrient exportation. That doesn't mean they're the most efficient option (as you noted) the bigger the tank as far as time, money and effort. In order for them to be effective you have to be taking out more nutrients then are being added back in. The other methods of exporting (fuge, ATS, skimmer, chemicals, etc.) also help with the uptake and exporting.  
 
Posted by: BrianC I have to disagree with you Michael V. Water changes are likely the best nutrient exporter. The reason we use all these other mechanisms is on the larger tanks water changes can get really expensive... I think all these mechanisms work to some degree. Problem is they really are only about 80-90% efficient and nothing is ever going to get 100% - short of starting with new RODI saltwater.We know what new water means - starting the nitrogen cycle all over again - it shouldn't be the goal.For example I see in a lot of advanced tanks almost no remaining clean up crew - I see the remnants where they once were and maybe a turbo snail or a hermit. There isn't enough algae (food) to sustain them. Which I think if you look at the fauna in a DSB there isn't much there either. We teach or are taught fresh water has high nutrients whereas Marine Environments are "sterile" - which we all know nowadays is not true. It is simply the Marine Environment is huge and everything is fighting for those limited nutrients. There are studies that show corals (some) grow more rapidly in nutrient saturated environments - hence nitrate and calcium dosing. We don't want an environment with 20ppm ammonia. We want an environment with .0000001ppm ammonia. Where our environment is so kickass at eating the ammonia it's hard to find. Sulfur occurs naturally in a marine environment from the decomposition of organisms. We get rid of it with high water flow. Sulfur can create a lot of really bad stuff in your tank. Problem with bioballs etc is eventually they will store minerals and nutrients (sulfur or something similar)  In my opinion closed environments are ALWAY bad.  I can easily take an algae scrubber remove the algae discard it and add it back... It's also cheap! said:
I would call water changes a good nutrient exporter, possibly the most efficient from an electrical perspective, but not from a functional perspective.  I was recently dealing with a bacterial bloom (I probably have a higher nutrient tank than many, but I also have zero nitrates and phosphates).  Didn't have UV handy, but carbon/Purigen wasn't doing anything.  I also connected it to a 600 gallon system (200-250 in the original display) that was recently filled, so in effect had a large water change.  Fought it for a couple weeks, then finally upped my fuge lighting a bit.  Problem solved in 48 hours.I agree that bioballs aren't good for much, but not because they trap nutrients.  I see bioballs as a low efficiency version of a foam block, or live rock depending on how you want to look at it.  Old live rock (and old sand beds that haven't been cleaned) have all sorts of gunk in them, just like bioballs.  Routinely keeping the system clean (export method of your choice) is the only way to cut down on that, and will also work for a bioball system.One thing a water change does do very well is bring water parameters (Ca, alk, Mg, trace, whatever) to the correct value.  Too high and they lower it, too low and they raise it (assuming good source water).
 
Yeah, I see bioballs and water changes the exact same way but failed to explain quite as elegantly
 
This is the best arguement for the algae turf scrubber - foodhttp://www.dfwmas.org/community/fish-and-coral-food/feed-algae-from-ats/
 
Definitely a good skimmer. Could add a marine pure block, ats and biopellets. Just use PhosphateRX for phosphate once a month or as needed. Thats what I am currently doing with 20% biweekly water changes. Although I am looking into minimizing the water changes.
 
I am having a mind blown moment, I had seen those ATS before but never did any research, it seems this things are completely awesome and can even replace your protein skimmer and do a much better job, it makes perfect sense too in the way they work. I can't find any for sale at brs and very few online overall, I am looking to buy one for a 75 tank but it seems most are pretty big, any recommendations for one that would fit below the stand? I have limited space due to the sump, reactors and ATO...Regarding GFO I had no idea it dropped dkh, but looking at some of my logs, it does drop every time I replace it, but seems to come back up by itself, I just never knew what was causing it!. I think GFO is quite important in my opinion, because its consantly removing it, otherwise I believe it will be mostly absorbed into the live rock, before you can use phosphate rx every month, it would be too late, in my opinion.
 
Take a look at Turbo's Aquatics.  He makes awesome scrubbers.  They are pricey, but you might be able to find one used (like I did).  They make some that sit on top of the sump and gravity drain directly into the sump.  Also, they look pretty easy to DIY.  You can come over and take a look at the Scrubber on my system any time you'd like.
 
Posted by: Mike R Take a look at Turbo's Aquatics.  He makes awesome scrubbers.  They are pricey said:
Thanks Mike, they do seem pricey, but I think they probably save money on the long run. I will have to email turboaquatics, since on the site I cant really find anything about the specifications of their L2, L4, L6 models, do you know what model you have?, how big is it?
 
View attachment 2712I'm pretty sure mine is an older version of the L2.  I think the model number represents how many light panels the unit has.  Mine is undersized for my system, but I couldn't pass up on the price.
 
Posted by: Mike R [ATTACH type="full said:
2712[/ATTACH]I'm pretty sure mine is an older version of the L2.  I think the model number represents how many light panels the unit has.  Mine is undersized for my system, but I couldn't pass up on the price."]Thanks Mike, that looks pretty cool, I did some more research and came across cheato reactors, I read about the pax bellum reactor, anyway I got sold on it, and bought one brand new. It is quite expensive ($450 but there was a $50 discount that ended yesterday) but based on what I read it works really well, I won't be running GFO anymore, once I receive it.
 
Chaeto reactors are new craze.... they were everywhere at MACNAcongrats in your new purchase!
 
Thank you Mike!, I have high hopes for this reactor, although I never have more than .03 phosphates and my nitrates always read zero, a small white/green algae keeps growing on my rock, it never gets too big, it just covers it, the thing is that it cover pretty much everything, except the corals thankfully, at the end it looks like a white/brown paste, but at the beginning after I scrub, I can definitely see the white/very light green algae filaments that then turn into paste over 2-3 months. Hoping this solves that issue.I still havent heard back from unique corals, it was a pre-order since as I understand pax bellum has new models for 2018. Hopefully I can get mine soon. I will let you guys know how it works!
 
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