To Cull or Not to Cull?

K

KCaquatics

Premium Member
Hello everyone, I'm posting this as a seperate thread so not to fill up my other thread with non essential clown breeding information. As a breeder it is my responsibility to cull fish with certain undesirable traits. Cull or Culling is the practice of killing fish with deformaties or other non desirable traits to keep them from passing that trait on to offspring. With my last hatch I only had to cull 2 fish, one which had developed a misformed gill and another with non uniform coloration but that doesn't make it any easier to do. I read online and found that putting them in the freezer was the most humane as they would fall asleep as it got colder and then be killed after falling asleep. Even with that I don't like to do it. After you work so hard to keep them alive it seems idiotic to then kill them later. I understand the purpose, so the traits aren't passed down and then you end up with clownfish being the new goldfish with bulging eyes and other deformities you often see in goldfish. That being said it doesn't make it any easier to purposefully kill a fish. That is why I would like to get some of your opinions on a little project I would like to start if you all can help me figure out the kinks so to speak. Unless I am mistaken the whole purpose is to keep these fish from breeding. So I would like to start a project where I give away these fish to someone who WILL NOT be breeding them but instead just enjoying them while they live out their lives. Also since I will be giving them away in some type of raffle ever person may have a chance to get a "designer clown" which as you know can be expensive. Not to mention it will be fun. They can make a great fish they just may have some quality that is undesirable for breeding.
For example, here is a fish I just found from this hatch that would need to be culled. As you can see from the first picture he looks completely normal
[attachment=1]Cull.JPG[/attachment]
[attachment=0]Cull1.jpeg[/attachment]
But when seen from the other side his coloration isn't uniform. Where it should stop it blends together rather than having sharp lines where the white and black/orange meet.
This fish is the only cull I have found so far in this hatch but I may find others upon my closer inspection before putting each clown up for sale. As you can see the fish is healthy and otherwise would still make a great pet but its just not suitable for breeding. Obviously there is no way for me to ensure that whoever recieves the clown doesn't breed it (if you have a great idea on how that is possible please let me know lol). So I guess what I am looking for is everyones opinion on the subject of whether I can trust that no one will breed these "culls" or if I should just keep killing them to ensure that doesn't happen. As well as any ideas on how to go about making sure these special clowns are taken by trustworthy and capable individuals. Please leave your thoughts and comments. Thanks for reading.
 
Unless it's a deformity that will cause issues on down the road somebody will value it enough to pay for it. It makes me think of all the discus I culled way back when due to irregular shape, now the football shape with angelfish like fins are high dollar. Personally I'd rather spend five or ten bucks on a crazy misbar than a hundred on a ideal fancy misbar. My wife said she liked the spotted faced one.
 
Unless it's a deformity that would effect the quality of life of the animal, then I'm not in favor of culling it. Whether you give it away or charge a nominal fee for it would obviously be up to you.
 
I think you should sell it to a trusted person....if that is possible. I think that one is awesome looking!!
 
I haven't culled for coloration, but I would change my prices for them. I can't think of any way you could prevent someone from breeding them unless you give the fish to someone you know personally and trust.

Main reasons I cull is physical deformities (crooked backs, flared gills, body shape, bulldog like underbites, etc) or swim bladder failure. The biggest reasons you'll see a lot of people in the breeding community go on about culling is because there are still hobby breeders that sell terrible fish to LFSs. I've seen "captive bred" clownfish in one of my local stores (not Reef Remedies) that could not swim because of swim bladder problems, and some with severe head shape irregularities due to inbreeding. Fish store owners think that that's what you get with captive bred fish. So it's up to the breeders to raise the bar on quality. We have to. We command a higher price than wild caught because our captive bred fish should be superior to wild caught in every way.

Incidentally, you have some gorgeous fish, so please take this as just me putting my thoughts on the subject out there and not as criticism of what you are doing.

As for your method of culling, putting them in the freezer supposedly puts them to sleep before they freeze, but most freezers work too quickly for that. They'll freeze before they "go to sleep." The preferred method is a heavy dose of MS-222 (Tricaine Methanesulfonate). If you can't obtain MS-222, then administering a clove oil bath before freezing works well too. Barring that, there's always the option of selling to someone that has a predatory tank and let nature take its course.
 
betting when in a anemone they would be as beautiful and happy as any clown could be. adopting a rescue fish would be cool.
If you do have any kind of raffle or lottery my wife and I would give a rescue fish a good home!
Please count us in if you do.
 
I'll make you the assurance I'll never breed clownfish again, there are many that do it and I support them but the effort and dedication that go into it can only be known by going through several clutches. Personally I've always felt the best method of culling was circle of life style, got a lionfish?
 
I really like the idea of selling them to someone with a pred tank. Seems most natural to me. I am sure shse666 would be happy to take them for his preds.
 
Thanks everyone for all the ideas. They all sound good. I think any I find with coloration problems will be given away, and any others found to have physical deformities will be given to someone with a predator tank or be culled by me. So if you are interested in the clown posted stay tuned for a raffle sometime in the near future. If you would like to add your name to the raffle please let me know in here asap and I will let everyone know when the drawing will be later on. Thanks again everyone and good luck
 
I will be happy to take the fish or any of the fish you have so as not to be put down.
And dave if you have some i would be more than happy to take yours also.
Steve
 
I don't know how many hobbyists actually desire to breed their fish? I have yet to try to breed anything in my tanks, and I've been in the hobby 15 years. My goal is healthy fish that live as long as possible, and I do all I can to keep their home stable and pretty.
 
@Titus wrote:
I really like the idea of selling them to someone with a pred tank. Seems most natural to me. I am sure shse666 would be happy to take them for his preds. said:
@mwilk19 wrote:
Unless it's a deformity that would effect the quality of life of the animal said:
FWIW, the above depending on the situation. I'm sure there are lots of folks that would love the chance at a unique and sustainably raised clown, myself included.
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I'm not a breeder, and after this thread, I'm not sure i want to be if it means i have to "cull" clowns because they don't offer the colors I see as desirable. My wife and I have stewed on this all day and honestly, you make us sick. I can see culling physical disabilities that hinder survival. But, killing because you don't like the way they look? Are you hitler or something?? At least give them to someone else who would love them. Even if they don't have the color separation you want. Give me a break.

I am a hunter. I cull whitetail bucks that don't look the way they should all the time. They don't possess the antlers that we desire. However, they are just as healthy as the next deer. But, I eat what I cull. At least tell me you eat your clowns. That would make us feel a little better. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way. But, I may be the only one that puts it so eloquently.


Matt
 
@Fish Outta Water wrote:
I'm not a breeder said:
First, please read what I say before posting a rude comment. Second, if you would have read it, you would have seen I am offering the ones I find with deformity in coloration for free in a raffle later on. The only ones I said I would cull are those with physical deformities. I am not Hitler, I thought it would be nice to offer these clowns for free so those who can't afford the high price tag, but would still love a clown, may have a chance at receiving one. Obviously you weren't here helping me gather the eggs to help them hatch at midnight and staying up until 3 to make sure everything went well even when I had to be at work the next morning. Or not here cleaning the tank every single day while raising their food and having to come home at lunch to feed them while they where still on live foods. I really don't appreciate the Hitler comment. Why would I work so hard to keep something alive to just kill it for the heck of it later. The only thing eloquent about your statement is the stupidity in it.


Sorry everyone else for the rant. This was the reason I posted here in the first place. I do not like culling and any clowns like the one above I would much rather give them away. That being said I want to be a responsible breeder and not diminish the beauty of these fish.

I originally got on here today, before I saw the rude comment, to let everyone know that I plan to have the raffle for the fish pictured above on Saturday July 13. I will draw a name from a hat. As my last comment said please let me know if you would like to enter the drawing in this thread and I will add your name to the pot. Thanks everyone, sorry again, and good luck [smilie=smile.gif]
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If you ever have to cull any fish I don't ever plan to breed anything so I would enjoy the addition to my tank.
 
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