RO/DI & bladder tank help

Ok, I have installed several RO/DI systems similar to Marc's kit, but never one for a kitchen. I plan on buying his kit soon and want to know how to expand it. He didn't have the info I was looking for, and I haven't really been able to Google it up...

I want to add a bladder tank before the DI cartridge (Marc's kit already has a valve to allow you to get drinking water that is not DI). I want the bladder tank to split between a spout mounted on the sink and a line ran about 25' over to the fridge for the icemaker/indoor dispenser.

I know this is no big deal, but I'm not sure what parts to buy beside the bladder tank. Are there any other valves/control mechanisms required or is the tank self contained?

I'm not after a full list of parts with every little connector, etc. I'm just not sure how the pressure tanks integrate into the overall system. I seem to remember that they take compressed air to maintain pressure, but do they require a pressure pump or controller to fill it with water?
 
You would need a check valve on the line that splits off before the DI so when you use the DI it won't suck water from your tank. Unless you want that but water may not be available to your frig then.
 
I wasn't planning on plumbing the DI output directly to the tank, but rather to a pair of 60G tanks (one for mixing salt, one for fresh). The pre-DI out would be plumbed to the pressure tank with a T and a valve. I would have to manually fill the 60G tanks, and would switch it back off to feed the pressure tank.
 
@timthetoolman wrote:
You would need a check valve on the line that splits off before the DI so when you use the DI it won't suck water from your tank. Unless you want that but water may not be available to your frig then. said:
I agree, as we have ours hooked up that way and without the check valve it would drain the bladder/tank first usually and won't fill it back up until the line is switched 'off' that is filling the holding tanks. If you want water to drink or frig... it won't be available anytime the tanks are filling otherwise. Also use the pressure in the tank to feed the frig line or it will run so slow it may not fill icemakers/water-outlets. JME

Doug
 
@waterbeing wrote:
[I]@timthetoolman wrote:[/I][quote="You would need a check valve on the line that splits off before the DI so when you use the DI it won't suck water from your tank. Unless you want that but water may not be available to your frig then. said:
I agree, as we have ours hooked up that way and without the check valve it would drain the bladder/tank first usually and won't fill it back up until the line is switched 'off' that is filling the holding tanks. If you want water to drink or frig... it won't be available anytime the tanks are filling otherwise. Also use the pressure in the tank to feed the frig line or it will run so slow it may not fill icemakers/water-outlets. JME

Doug"]

Ah, got it. I was thinking Tim meant a check valve so that my sump or tank would not drain back into my bladder tank. I understand now! I can install a check valve, but the kit does come with a manual valve for both the RO out and the DI out. I'll sketch up a simple diagram and post it later, so we can see if I'm short any other parts...

And yes, the line off of the bladder tank is for the fridge/sink outlet. It does require more pressure than the kit can provide without it. I already confirmed that with Marc.

Thanks so far!
 
This is a rough sketch, so don't make fun! But basically, here is what I'm trying to accomplish. Later on, I'll probaby add an eletronic valve to keep the 60G freshwater tank full all the time. For now everything would be manually filled, and I would leave the pressure tank on all the time, except for when filling the 2 60G tanks.

I would be using an Amtrol RO4, which should net me around 2-2.5 gallons of water available even while I'm filling the 60s.

Just making sure I'm not missing something. The RO unit, pressure tank, and sink spigot will all be together. The run to the 2 60s will be about 10' with about 5' of head, out a wall to the garage. The run to the fridge will be about 25' with about 2.5' of head (through every stinking kitchen cabinet I own!). The run to the sink spigot will be 2' or less. I shouldn't need any booster pumps, right?

To Tim's point, a check valve could be used in place of the manual valve to always keep water available to the kitchen.

All in all, I'd be in this for around $500. (And I'd be splitting that with a family member who wants water).

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You could get a 1" threaded CPV check valve, put a 1" x 1/4" bushing in each end with a 1/4" thread x (I think they are John G. fittings - anyway the one you insert the hose in) put it in line where it has the arrow pointing to drinking water and your done. Use a smaller check valve if they have them and adjust the fitting sizes to match.
As long as the check can hold around 70 psi then water should always be ready for yourself. Double check valves may be required if they leak a bit...just speculating at this point. I know a backflow assembly would hold back the water but that is an overkill.
 
I ended up going with a different kit ( :oops: sorry Marc), that was setup already with most everthing I needed to do the aquarium and the kitchen. I also ran into some space constraints when I got under and measured my sink area. I ended up with a single carbon filter instead of Marc's double carbon up front.

Marc's kit is a great deal for the kit itself, but when I added all my extra parts (tank, sink spigot, different fittings, auto shutoff valve, check valve) I would have spent more. I will be buying my cartridges from Marc though!

Abundant Flow 100GPD combo unit

I got the kit UPS on Wednesday, and I'm doing the install this weekend (in the kitchen, not the garage tanks), and will snap pics just in case someone who has never installed one of these wants to see....
 
Sorry for the delay, I've been pretty busy. Here are pics of my install process.

I installed this unit under my sink, running two lines to different areas behind the cabinets. One runs all the way to the fridge while the other runs to the stove, through the wall, and into the garage. I will add my garage storage tanks later (when funds allow).

First I had my wife empty all our stuff out from all the cabinets in the lower half of the kitchen. We had a lot of china and other glass ware that needed to be put up since our baby is busy getting into the cabinets and since we really don't use it that much. I'll tot-lock the important cabinets, but didn't want to do them all.

Junky looking isn't it??
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Here is the system all laid out. I also ordered 2 extra ball valves, 2 extra Ts, and 50ft of extra hose to run my fridge/garage lines. I also paid a little extra and upgraded the sink spigot to a nicer looking model.
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After the sink was all cleaned out of junk, I got started. Here is the before picture. It looks roomy in there, but really isn't. The garbage disposal really makes that side almost unusable.
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I decided to allow for the most usable storage space that the best way to mount the system was with the RODI unit on this side.
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And to place the pressure tank on the opposite side, tucked behind the drain pipe. It rests against the copper pipe feeding the dishwasher, which happens to already have a nice backwards curve in it.
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After consulting with my better half, and checking for clearance under the sink, I marked the spot where I had to drill for the sink dispenser. I had assumed that drilling the porcelain would be the hardest part of the install, but it was actually pretty easy with some patience.
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After turning the water off at the street, I pulled the cold water fitting off the sink and attached the supplied fitting. It had a beefy 1/4" valve and was very heavy duty. Unfortunately, this is where I ran into a little trouble. I didn't notice that the supplied fittings were not compression, but instead iron pipe type. I never could get a good seal and it leaked at a pretty good rate.
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Please remember that even with the street water turned off, there will be a lot of water in the lines, especially in a two story house. I opened a bathroom faucet to bleed the pressure off and help drain the 2nd story lines. A big bowl and lots of towels are still needed to catch the draining water.

I then decided to scrap the iron pipe fitting and just reattach the old compression fitting and buy the adapter from home depot. Ha! That didn't work either, as I never could get a good reseal from the compression fitting. So I cut the compression ring off with a small hacksaw and installed a new one from home depot, along with the 1/4 feed adapter. The Home Depot one was not well marked and buried on that isle. But it was worth finding. It fits between the compression valve and the flexible sink feed hose, instead of between the iron pipe style that was supposed to fit before the main valve.
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After that big time delay, I got started on the cabinets. Using a 1/2 spade bit, I drilled out the sink area and towards the final destination. I fed my 2 out lines to their final spots. Why feed 2 lines all the way from the source instead of just a 'T' halfway through? Well, remember this kit has dual outs for pre/post DI. I'm feeding RO water to the fridge, and DI water to the garage. This also is convenient, since I have all my on/off valves under the sink in one spot, and don't have any fittings buried in a cabinet or behind an appliance. Less chance for leaks and unnoticed damage that way. I live in a cookie cutter house with nary a custom anything in sign. As such, these cabinets are pre-fab and just installed on site. I made good use of the pre-fab bracing and wasted space to run my lines out of harm's way. I did it slowly, making sure there were no kinks or stressful bends along the way. The DI line was ran through the wall (behind the stove), the RO line ran all the way around to the fridge. I cut some excess away and attached the RO line to the fridge.
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Next, I installed my boutique sink dispenser and attached a spare piece of line to it. That will attach to a 'T' that feeds either this dispenser or the line to fridge with RO water (blue line from unit). The blue line is pressurized from the tank with RO water. No DI water passes through the pressure tank.
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Next, I set the main unit in place and measured for the mounting screws. I made sure they weren't too long to punch through to the other side, and beefy enough to hold the unit when it is full of water.
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With the unit set in place I set the pressure tank in place and drilled the hole for the waste water line. After sticking on a little foam gasket, I attached the waste water bracket by inserting the waste line (yellow) and feeding about 1/4" of it past the John Guest fitting. That little stub of hose gets put into the hole that got drilled in the drain pipe and then the bracket is simply bolted together. I then measured and cut the hose to the pressure tank (clear), and cut and attached the feed line hose (red).
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Next, I trimmed and attached the blue feed line to the 'T' with the fridge line and the sink dispenser. After double checking all my fittings, I opened the valve on top of the pressure tank, and opened the cold water valve to pressurize the system. I turned on the sink dispenser to help bleed some air out and stood back. I quickly found that I had two small leaks. One was in the John Guest fitting off of the DI unit. That was resolved by removing the fitting, rewrapping the threads with ample teflon tape and reattaching. The other was from the center of the check valve. Whoops, can't fix that. I left the system powered on and put a bowl under where the check valve leak was collecting. That way, I could go ahead and run my startup purges. The mfg suggested that you run two full fills/dumps through the RO pressure tank, as well as ditch the 1st few gallons of DI water. I also had to dump all my nasty ice, and feed enough water through the fridge door to empty the internal tank. My GE fridge has a user replaceable filter that I removed and installed the blockoff cap for. Why filter RO water? I also eliminated that $35 filter that was replaced every 6 months with this kit. More savings for me!! Yaayy!

I must say that Abundant Flow Water handled the check valve replacement very well and shipped me a new part immediately. After that, I have no leaks!

Here is my sink after install. Since I don't have my garage tanks in yet, I left the DI feed line free with a ball valve. For now I just set my 5G in front of the sink and set the kitchen timer. For 5G it's taking about 90 minutes with my cold city water and our city's pressure. Not great, but not terrible either.
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For anyone not sure if they can pull off a RO/DI kit install, just do it! It's very easy, just a little time consuming (and that's coming from someone who is usually put off by under sink projects!).


And finally, no project is complete without a picture of the help crew.
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The main DI is the furthest one to the right. The one on top is a secondary DI filter according to the website. I didn't realize it had it until after I ordered.

Here is a better pic and the page from the manual.

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I agree, the top one looks like an inline carbon filter. I'm not understanding why they would run it through a DI cartridge and come out with 0 TDS and go back through another DI cartridge.
The water should go from the source to the prefilter, to the carbon, then to the top (I am only assuming) carbon filter, to the membrane below it and then down to the DI cartridge. I've never worked with this kind so I'm not sure.
 
I pulled the filter off and googled the model number. It is a GAC in-line filter. Carbon it is, with a coconut lined shell. Removes chlorine taste and odor remover.

Keep in mind that the way this system is plumbed, the tank and this in-line filter are not post-DI. There is a split, the RO Water feeds either the DI cartridge or the inline filter which is pressurized by the tank. It is correct that this would not be needed on DI water.
 
I did just review the picture of supplied in the manual. It is not really correct for the unit I ordered. There were two options when ordering, one is with both the DI and the RO water feeding the tank and you switch back and forth with a pair of ball valves. Why you would ever want to mix those, I don't get... The other option is to have it plumbed with a T so that RO water gets the pressure tank and the DI water is non-pressurized. The diagram above is the system I didn't order with the 2 ball valves.
 
I'm finally adding pictures of the rest of my setup. Been kinda busy lately!

My nephew and I started a stand for his 150G tall, but we ended up buying another one to modify instead of using ours. Turns out, it makes for a very good storage tank holder!

My DI water line was fed through the wall of the kitchen behind the stove and into the garage. It then is connected to a solenoid A/C valve with 1/4" JG fittings. It is from Fishbowl Innovations. It is normally closed and opens when A/C power is applied. I coupled that with the ATO kit that I got here from HSLee. I use one of those kits under my tank as well (I'll add those at the end of this post).

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The tank is a 65G poly vertical that I got from Gebo's in McKinney. It comes standard with a 1 1/4" threaded bulkhead attached. I bought the valve, fittings, and hose from Elliot's in Plano.

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I drilled a 1/4" hole in the lid of the tank to attach the input line, and a 5/8" hole in the side of the tank for the horizontal float valve, attached two wires to the relay box, mounted the box on the wall and that's it...

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I have two boxes/solenoids mounted on the wall. They are for a 2nd tank I'll buy as my budget allows. For now, this tank is just fresh water. The 2nd will be a mixing tank for my saltwater.

The master control ball valve is under the sink in the kitchen. I plan on adding a T to the line here feeding that into a ball valve for each tank, then the solenoid valve for each tank. Reason being, I want to be able to have the saltwater tank fill and cut itself off, but you can't leave that live all the time. Otherwise after you drew out some water it would just top off fresh again and you'd have to remix right then. I prefer to mix 60 gallons and use up 60 gallons all in one batch. I'll shut off the fresh tank while the salt tank is filling, so it take priority.

I also thought about another issue, but didn't address it here: summer heat. The garage stored water can get pretty toasty during the summer. I still keep a few of my 5G jugs around, I fill them the night before I do a water change so they can cool off. Top off water isn't a big deal since it's trickled into the sump via an aqualifter.

And for actually topping off the tank... I bought another of HSLee's ATO relays and drilled my sump for the float switch. I mounted the A/C box up and out of the way. I didn't want to spend $$ on a top of container, nor lose top off water to evaporation before I got to use it, so I did this...

I took a 5G jug, added a bushing step down from 3/4 threaded to 1/2 threaded, then bought a fitting that is 1/2 threaded to 1/4 JG (both from Home Depot). To get to the bottom of the jug, I used rigid airline tubing from PetsMart and with a tiny amount of sanding and some brute force shoved it into the underside of the JG fitting (there is no JG fitting on the inside, just a smooth hole). When I need to add top off water to my container, I just remove the lid and swap jugs. Takes about 30 seconds...

I plugged an aqualifter into the A/C box, and used a small piece of rigid tubing as an "adapter" to go from RO tubing to airline tubing. It actually works quite nice.

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