Difficulty cycling a 210G, NOT a newbie!

S

StevesLEDs

Hey guys,
I got a 210 tank all set up and running about 12 weeks ago and is still isn't cycling. It's got a Trigger system sump/refugium (20 lbs miracle mud and cheato), Trigger system skimmer, and 1/2 hp chiller. I have about 50 lbs of base rock in there and about 100lbs of live rock. 150 lbs of live sand. No special lighting. I routinely add kalk and essential minerals/vitamin additives. Ammonia is about .25, nitrites and nitrates are both '0.' Buffer/alkalinity/calcium are all ideal. Temp is 78.5° and PH is 82 solid. Salinity 1.024. I use RO/DI water that I make myself with '0' TDS. Now, here's the situation.

After setting the tank up 12 weeks ago, I filled it up, and let everything run for a few days and used about 3 lbs of carbon to get out any chemicals that were left over from gluing the pvc. I then added all of the sand and all of the base rock and 50lbs live rock. After about a week, I got a goby, med yellow tank and about 5 green chromis. 5 weeks later, the ammonia has risen to .25 and everything else checks out ok. Two weeks later, the ammonia is still .25 and has not peaked, it just remains. So I add 7 more chromis to get more ammonia in the tank and shut off the skimmer. Two more weeks later, ammonia the same, and everything else is the same. The following week all of the fish died except the tang, and I left the remaining fish in the tank, again, trying to get the ammonia to peak, I also turn the skimmer back on. The LFS guy, naturally, tells me I need more live rock, so I got another 50lbs, plus about 20 lbs of rubble for the sump. As of last week, nothing has still changed with nitrites and nitrates still at 0 and ammonia at .25. I noticed that even the corraline algae is starting to die off of the live rock along with the critters, despite the calcium level around 400 and about 100 watts of light on for 10 hours per day. I use a 1200 gph external return pump and some maxijets for circulation.

I've had numerous tanks in the past, and for some reason, I just can't nail this one out. Does anyone see me doing anything blatantly wrong? Any suggestions besides "more live rock" (which will probably die)? I'm aiming for this to be a reef tank, but it's not looking so good right now. I've spent about $5,000 on the tank and hate to spend any more until I know eerything is ok.

Oh, the yellow tang? Eats great, growing fast, happy, fat, perfect fins, and couldn't be better.

Thanks guys!
 
I suggest you stop adding things to the system. Every time you add a living organism you are adding load to the system with generates waste in the form of ammonia and that means any living organism including live rock. Was your initial live rock fully cured and did you get it from a known source. I cured my rock after i got it for 4 weeks before putting it in my new tank( the first 125) and for 8 week on the second 125. You may have been on the light side for you initial live rock. Are you running a deep sand bed in the tank, the amount of sand doesn't indicate that. You can lighten up on the rock if you use more live sand that is 5+ inches. I put over 300# of sand(50% live) in the 125 reef tank. Let the existing system catch up and rest.
 
Have you tried a different test kit to make sure it's not the test kit that's reading incorrectly?

Also, as others have stated please don't add any move livestock to the system until it's fully cycled at this point...
 
As others stated, try another test kit if you are doing it yourself. It sounds like all your liverock was bought at the lfs. If so, it might have cycled there and you won't see a cycle. I bought all my liverock at the lfs for my 30gal sps tank and I never saw a cycle. It could be that the live rock is able to keep up with the nitrate production. Also, have you done any water changes since you set the tank up?

As for the coraline algae, it may be your lighting unless that was a mis-type. 100 watts isn't much for a 210 tank.
 
"After about a week, I got a goby, med yellow tank and about 5 green chromis. 5 weeks later, the ammonia has risen to .25 and everything else checks out ok. Two weeks later, the ammonia is still .25 and has not peaked, it just remains. So I add 7 more chromis to get more ammonia in the tank and shut off the skimmer. Two more weeks later, ammonia the same, and everything else is the same. The following week all of the fish died except the tang, and I left the remaining fish in the tank, again, trying to get the ammonia to peak"

Wow, first don't use livestock to cycle, frozen cocktail shrimp from the store do wonders!

Second you want to add one fish at a time with weeks in between if possible. At this point your rock is trying to keep up but you keep adding stuff so it can't, it hasn't reached equilibrium yet. I would test with another test kit and let everything be for at least 2 weeks and test again. Then when ammonia and nitrates are zero slowly add fish one by one with at least 2 weeks in between (qt them first by the way) No reason to kill anymore fish. Simply a matter of impatience getting in your way!

I would be willing to bet you were fine without the last add but then you add 7 fish and turn off the skimmer and probably did have an ammonia spike. It's cycled if you have fish living in it it's fine. You just gave it to much to handle though!
 
Ok, got the water tested at the LFS, ammonia is .25 and nitrites and nitrates are '0.'

Yes, I only have the two 48 watt bulbs/fixtures that came with the tank.

No, I have not done any waterchanges ;)

Sandbed is about 1.25" in the tank and mud is 2.5" in the refugium.

I am unsure whether the live rock was cured, it had plenty of stuff growing on it and most of has died off now. Paid $5.99.lb if that helps.

So I guess the question is....where do I go from here? Do I just sit back and wait and hope everything resolves itself without touching anything in the tank?

Should I add a couple hundred more pounds of live sand?
Should I add more light?

Thanks!
 
One thing I see that jumped right out at me besides what others have mentioned is you only have 1.25" of sand. for a DSB you'll need at least 3-4" to even start to qualify for a DSB.
When you got the live rock, did you rinse and scrub it down or just do a quick rinse? I ran into a similar problem cycling an overflow tank where the Nitrates wouldn't budge. I later found it to be because of slower than expected die off from the "cured" live rock rubble.
 
what kind of salt are you using and how often do you do water changes? also, was it a new tank? if not, are yous ure no chemical treatments were used in it that could be lingering? could there be anything leaching into the system, rust from something metal close by? where is the tank located, could there be something close by getting into the water? do you put your hands in your water very much, could be something on your hands, soap, oil, lotion? dont know, jsut throwing out some stuff to see where it goes
 
Deep sand beds aren't necessary in a display tank (in fact, I find them to be rather unsightly), but are useful to control nitrates. Lots of people are using remote DSB in their refugium, or even a separate sump or bucket.

You mentioned that lots of the life on the rocks has died off, this is an indication that it wasn't cured well before going into the system.

Were you doing regular testing during the 12 weeks that the tank has been running? It's a good idea to check at least once a week to make sure that ammonia goes up, followed by nitrite and finally nitrate. By the time you see the nitrate spike, ammonia and nitrite should be 0 (or very close to it).

I think the best plan of action at this point is to take the remaining fish back to the LFS where you bought it to see if they can house it while you get things straightened out. I would consider getting a cup or two of live sand from someone to seed the bed that you do have, and either increase the amount of rock in the display, or go with a DSB someplace. Then, take one or two frozen, uncooked shrimp (grocery store style) and throw them in. Monitor your levels as the shrimp begins to rot and resist the temptation to add any livestock until you see the full nitrate cycle take place. Then, start slow with a cleanup crew of snails and hermits (if you decide to use them..some don't) and see how they hang in for a week or so. At this point, provided the cleanup critters didn't go belly up, get your tang back and SLOWLY start adding fish to the system. Don't do too much at once as your now stable system will have to adjust to the increased bioload in order to keep up with the additional waste.

Good luck, and go slow. Nothing good happens fast in this hobby.
 
What kind of base rock is in the tank? Where did it come from? Did you make it yourself? If it is DIY rock, it could be leaching out stuff even now.

Is the surface rippling, or is it still? Does it have an oil slick on it, or is it clean and clear?

The rest of the advice you've been given sounds good to me. Once you get the water quality where it needs to be, your next focus should be on quality lighting. There's no rush on that right now, but that could be why you are seeing die-off on the live rock.

It is possible to never see a cycle take place, especially with LR, a refugium and skimmer. That doesn't mean the tank isn't ready. The fish may have died for a completely different reason. .25 ammonia isn't enough to wipe out fish, ime.
 
The base rock is actually live rock, that was in a circulating 44 gallon rubbermaid barrel for about 6 months (no history of copper or other chemicals used in that tank). It looked just like regular live rock without all the critters. Now, all of my rock looks like that, with a thin coat of brown slime. I did do a brief saltwater rinse on all of the rock before putting it in the tank....no srubbing (was I supposed to?)

The surface is rippling and it is clean and clear with no slick, I have a 1200 gph return and 3 Hydor Coralis 4's for circulation, which are 1200 gph each.

I have been testing the water religiously (and impatiently I suppose) about every 5 days. In my experience and in the other 4 tanks I've had, the ammonia spike generally last for no more than 10 days, so I figured I couldn't miss it, and I don't think I have. The ammonia has never been over .25 and has not budged, and neither has the nitrites or nitrates, both remaining at '0' for the entire time now.

The tank, was purchase new from DNA at full price (stupid me) and still had the shipping cardboard on it. I've been extremely carefull about sticking dirty hands in the tank, and always do a RO wash and rinse before sticking my hands in there. (not a newbie, I've learned my lesson before;) There is nothing that is being introduced into the tank, especially no metals/rust. The only metal things touching the water are the metal shaft on the Sequence Reeflo pump and the Hydor pumps and the titanium grounding probe. Any pvc chemicals, should have been collected by the carbon I used.

I've had several good suggestions so far and they won't all work simultaneously. How does this plan sound?

Leave the tank as it stands, no kalk, no essential elements, no more fish.
Leave current fish in there to provide a source of ammonia, since LR is probably all dead.
Add a couple cups of established sand from my other tank to seed this tank.
Wait until I have a healthy amount of nitrates and then put more lighting on.

Does this sound good?

As you can see, it appears that I seem to be doing most of the things right (except adding the 7 fish in the middle of the game). So I am open to any suggestions.
 
First take a deep breath and relax, this is a simple and really easily fixable issue!


Test and keep the water between 8-10 dkh and ~400 calcium, test every couple days with some reasonable test kits (Salifert, Elos, etc) Even though you don't have corals thes levels will help thing like calcarous algeas and things in the rock that are desirable and keep the pH more stable which is important to the fish!

Your live rock is most definitly not dead. The bacteria are still there. You don't need an additional ammonia source.

With one one fish you may never see the nitrates rise at all. Heck in my current tank I've never tested above trace nitrates in the 16 months I've had this one setup now! nitrates at more then a couple ppm is not ideal though fish can withstand much higher.

After 3 weeks of stability and the water at consitent levels and the fish doing OK you could start to add some more livestock (please quarentine first) but like 1 fish. Test, watch, wait, etc. repeat every 3-4 weeks


Get in the habit of regular water changes. Around 10% every 2-4 weeks is sufficient and more doesn't hurt.

The light is fine for a fish only tank.
 
Wow could not have said that better myself!!!

Now that is how you get a problem fixed, talk about a good group of people here that know there stuff.

Good jobs guys.
Charlie
 
@Technosteve wrote:
Hey guys said:
Looks like the aim is to create a reef tank... Wheres the lights? Light will help with the cycle by causing algae blooms and all kinds of ugly stuff to grow.
In my experience my tanks have always gotten lots of light initially (16-18 hours daily for a week or two), and I encourage tons of cyano and other algaes to bloom, then at the peak, when its starting to look really bad is when the algaes begin really strugging to get enough nutrients because of so much competition, and some die off begins. This is the time for a water change. (20-30%)

I usually encourage a really bad outbreak of algae, then wait one more week to let it get really bad, then do a 20-30% water change, then encourage 1 more bloom. then 1 more big water change. Usually after this (2 blooms, and 2 water changes) things really begin to calm down and the tank begins to stabilize pretty quickly.
Click to expand...
 
If you still have issues, I would take the Natureef Denitrifier offline until the tank has properly cycled and running for a bit with livestock. IMO you should let your bacteria get pretty established before adding this piece of equipment, it may be interfering with the natural process here. :wink:

Cheers,
 
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