Where are my fish?

[LSBBA]

Yet again I am in need of assistance. I have/had the following fish in my tank which is a 28g jbj led.

Fish: Six-line wrasse, 2 Firefish Goby, Aurora Goby, Black and White Clownfish, Sleeper Diamond Goby.

Invertebrates: Blue Spiny Lobster, Cleaner Shrimp, Pistol Shrimp, Banded Starfish, Sand Sifting Starfish, 4 Hermits (the Lobster likes to make them snacks), 4 turbo snails, 4 astrea snails, ***2 tonga nassarius snails, 3 feather dusters, Rose Bubble Tip Anemone

Corals/Algae: Dragon's Breath Fire Algae, Candy Coral, Pulsating Xenyia, Zoanthids

Last week I added the diamond goby, 4 turbo snails, 2 tonga nassarius, and a sandsifting starfish to help with my cyno and other algae problems. The day after I added the Diamond goby; it and one of my firefish disappeared. In another atempt to clean up the algeas I rearranged the rock work and cleaned it all off to no avail of finding the two missing fish. I did find two empty tonga shells by the pistol shrimp lair.

One local LFS (a) told me that the other LFS (b) should not have sold me the tonga snails because they will prey on fish that are sleeping at the bottom of the tank on the sand like the diamond goby and firefish both do. My thoughts are that the tonga snails caught the diamond and firefish in their burrows. It tried to take out the aurora goby but the pistol shrimp killed them. Since I had heard some clicking from the tank. I found no bodies while sifting through the sand and reorganizing the rock work. So the fish are gone completely. What happened to my fish? What out of all of this tank could have killed my fish? Thanks in advance!

 

[blide]

Hmm... I would say your fish probably just died and then maybe the tonga snails ate them after. The fish you're missing are small and could disappaer easy.

I would recommend you not adding anything to the tank for now. Plus don't remove the rock and clean it because from what I understand in your other thread the tank is going through a mini cycle because your just setting up the tank.

 

[Wes]

My money's on the lobster...he should not be in a community tank that small

Read this - http://mobile.associatedcontent.com/article/1211551/the_blue_spiny_lobster_a_hardy_pet.html

 

[txbj]

I am sorry for your loss. You have a lot of live stock...the wrong livestock in such a small tank. I think you need to research the critters you are buying before you buy them, you have a dangerous combo in your tank. I would think your lobster, your wrasse or your stars ate your fish. Your other firefish & cleaner shrimp will probably disappear next. If your aurora goby & clown are small they're going to get eaten also. The featherdusters are going to be another snack. Do not replace any of them. You almost never can mix aggressive critters & passive critters in a small tank. My tongas never both anything live. When you clean/disturb your rocks like that you are upsetting the world your fish live in. You are going to have casualties. Don't add anything more to your tank. RESEARCH before you buy. Make an educated plan for when your tank gets healthy again and your critters have thinned out just what kind of tank you want and follow that plan. Less is better.

 

[Wes]

Couldn't agree more, I'd personally get rid of everything except the cleaner and the clowns, maybe the firefih...first to go are the lobster, bcs and the pistol. the sand sifting star is just going to die so I'd get rid of it next.

 

[LSBBA]

A LFS that is next to me said he would give me $20 for the blue spiny lobster so it sounds like he is going to leave my tank this week. I am thinking about adding another fish here at the end of february (nextwave) would a snowflake clown, and/ or blue flasher wrasse. The snowflake should work with the black/white clown since they are both from the ocilarius (sp) family right? THe blue flasher wrasse is compatible from what I read as well. What are your thoughts.

 

[txbj]

No....no....no, your tank needs time to get healthy. Your tank only has space for 2-3 of the right combo of fish. Ideally NO wrasse, many larger tanks only have 1 wrasse, it is an aggressive fish & they usually don't like other wrasses or fish with a similar shape. Only 2-3 very passive fish will survive in your tank...if it gets healthy. No, another clown probably won't work. If you want 2 clowns in a small tank, they need to be added at the same time. See if your fish store will buy your wrasse. IF your clown, a goby & a firefish survive the war in your tank, that would be about right. GOOGLE the fish you want, read a couple pages of remarks on the fish, then decide if your tank is appropriate. Please do some research on the fish you want. You can't just put a bunch of fish in a small amount of unhealthy water. See the tank sizes they need, the dispositions of their species, feeding needs. Remember if these small fish survive they grow.

 

[txbj]

Besides selling your lobster & your wrasse, you also should sell your starfish & your bubble anemone before they die. After that if you leave your rock alone, keep up with weekly 10% water changes, sucking out the nasty stuff off the bottom & using a turkey baster to blow it off your rocks add a new bag of Phos Ban every couple weeks. I do hope you are using chemi pure or something to help your water quality. Lights on less than 8 hrs daily. Don't overfeed. When your lights are off, Maybe leave your lid partially open (after your wrasse is gone) & add a hang on filter with Phos ban & filter floss in it on the front off your tank with a light weight fabric over it (covering the side openings) so your gobys don't jump out, to filter more of your phosphates out of your water. Be sure to rinse your bags of media in salt water, keeping the yucky stuff off them. Are you adding a water conditioner to your top off water? Are you using RO/DI water? Do you have a salt water test kit? You need to be testing your water often at this point or how will you know if you are achieving the correct perimeters. There is so much you need to research & teach yourself before you add anything to your tank. It's not nice to kill fish because you don't learn how to take care of them.

 

[LSBBA]

WOW! I am over loaded right now. I am no idea where to start or begin. I have spent hundreds of dollars on test kits and maintenance items for my tank but I try to do research, ask LFS but every one has a different opinion on everything. What the heck do I do. Every says no do it this way, don't do this, do this and so on and so forth so I have no idea what to do now. My rose is doing awesome with my clown which humps the heck out of it every minute of every day. My aurora and pistol pair do awesome in the corner of the tank in there own world. My six-line swims around in and out of the rocks picking here and there on the rock and sand. my firefish hides a lot but is not chased by anything. Why do I need to sell back my six-line when every LFS (5) that I have talked to said it is fine? I do understand the point of not adding another of a similar species because they may fight. Why do I need to sell back my starfish? Why would they die? Again, my LFS said i needed them to help turn over the sand and eat the waste.

Now I am curious about the phos ban. What is that and what do I do with it? I have live rock, live sand , and red algae in the back of the refugium with an LED light shining on the algae. Is that not good?

I do have my lights on from 10:00 to 10:00 so i need to cut down 4 hours then. Does the amount of time with the "Dusk" lights matter? I was thinking 10:00 am-12:00 dusk lights, 12:00-8:00pm lights,8:00-10:00pm dusk, and the rest moonlight?

I feed these fish 1 cube of brine a day with a 1/4 tsp arctic pods and a drop of garlic and vitamins. Is that too much? Also i give a piece of krill to my lobster every other day and once a week to my rose.

What is Phos Ban and Filter Floss? I like the idea of taking out the high phosphates but how?

I dont condition my top off water because I buy RO water from my LFS. Which I assumed was okay. But i guess I shouldn't assume. I do have a saltwater test kit for PH, Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, calcium and one that starts with an M (sorry not able to look right now). I am curious of why you say I can only have 2 -3 fish because every tank I have seen of this same size has 5-6 fish on it. They all had the goby/clown/six-line setups. That was why I had chosen what I did. When I check for the parameters for the fish they all say 5-30 gallons aquariums, all where passive except six-line.

P.S. I did find out while cleaning my tank the other day that the whole algae problem was started off because about a handful of the red dragons breath algae was in the back of the refugium with out light and had died. I had forgotten that I put it back there "temporarily" while cleaning my tank. I removed it all and have started syphoning the cyano and while send pics here later this week. I do appreciate everyone's help. I am trying to learn from yalls advice and from what I read.

 

[Wes]

With a six line added first, you cant add any other wrasse. It will pick on any other one you add, possibly even other types of fish. its a very aggresive fish so if you are fine with that, keep it.

sand sifting starfish need a very large footprint to survive, your tank is incredibly too small. i have about 300 poounds of sand in my tank and i wont even add one until i upgrade and can add more.

just get some chaeto, not many people use the red stuff so the export ability of it could be less. everyone uses chaeto, it works, so stick with what works.

not really, but you do probably have the lights on too long. cut off an hour from each side of dusk, and an hour in between to see how things go.

that should be fine, but watch to see if they can eat it all in about 5 minutes. if not, try a half a cube or feed the full cube at two different points in the day. also, try straining the food with a brine net before feeding to limit polution. again, get RID of the lobster.

phosban is just a powder you can put in a bag that will bind some of the bad stuff in the water, and filter floss is just a type of mechanical filtration that will collect detritus.

never assumer, get you a tds meter and check the water yourself. nothing wrong with using LFS water, but there is nothing wrong with double checking their measurements right?

the main issue is that your tank is having issues, so get the tank healthy and plan what fish get along before adding anything else. if you plan it right, you probably can have 5 fish but not with how things are going now.

 

[LSBBA]

Wes thank you very much. I like the break down . I do have a biocube protein skimmer. Do you recommend that or should i get another one? And I would like to go through with the phosban idea could you give me a little more detail of where, when, what I should do.

 

[starscream]

@LSBBA wrote:

On a smaller system such as this 28 gallon, the main limitation is going to be space. Adding another biocube skimmer will help skim out more organics, but setting up some chaeto in properly lit fug area should be a higher priority. In your current set up, water changes are the only thing reducing nutrients on any level that matters. This is unsustainable in the long term, especially in smaller systems with several fish which require regular feedings. You will be forced to do tons of water changes just to keep the nutrients under control. The chaeto will export nitrates and phosphates naturally and is essential in your current setup. If your chaeto takes off, you many not need to use any media such as phosban as your phos may naturally be maintained near zero with just the chaeto nutrient export.

The nutrient level (nitrate & phos) in your tank should be your main indicator when you make the decision to whether or not add any more livestock. If your nitrates and phosphates are near zero before your next water change, then your system is perfectly safe for an addition. Compatibility and real estate aside, the main drawback to a smaller system is that the small increments in feeding habits can have a larger impact on your nutrient levels. This is why livestock has to be added one at a time and the nutrient level has to be monitored over time before adding any more, especially in smaller systems. I would highly recommend that you monitor your nutrient levels and make sure they are maintained near zero before you choose to make additions. If there are higher levels of nutrients, adding a chaeto fug and perhaps a higher capacity skimmer would help rectify this.

There are plenty of "rules of thumb" (mostly conservative and for good reason) regarding how many fish to add and how many of each species can get along with each other. However, there are exceptions to some of these "rules" and methods to solve territorial disputes. Let your nutrient levels and the space available be your guide when choosing to add any fish. When you opt to go with the same species in a small quarters, chances are that the fish already in the tank will have established territorial dominance and fight off the newcomer. This can sometimes be resolved by isolating the aggressor while letting the newcomer adjust. The smaller the tank, the harder it is to tackle these types of disputes. Just consider your decision very carefully as sometimes you will not be able to reconcile their differences and may unfortunately end up killing one or both fish. To bring up a good example about clownfish, I have kept a female maroon clownfish by herself for over a year. I decided to add a small juvenile later. After a day of love taps, they are happily paired for over 2 years now. The maroons are also proud home owners of a GBTA and spawning regularly. I have read from several sources about this being a "harsh" method to develop a pair and perhaps I just got really lucky. I have a friend who has a koran & imperator angelfish, coral beauty & flame angels, as well as an achilles and regal tangs in a 180 gallon. They were all added at different times; they have had their quarrels and get along just fine now. It is only a matter of time before your RBTA outgrows your tank, but you can keep it for a while and who is to say that it wouldn't split before then.The point is that, with the proper precautions, some rules can be broken. Just because the odds are against you doesn't mean that it is impossible. It is also true, however, you could probably save yourself a lot of trouble if you listen to the "rules" but that's usually no fun [smilie=wink.gif].

 

[C4rN4gE]

Lots of good advice has been given, but like all advice, take it with a grain of salt. You have a tank that is at the larger end of the "Nano" spectrum. Nano tanks were designed to allow saltwater tanks for people that perhaps dont have the space for an 8 foot long monster tank. But, they were also designed to be simplistic. Personally, a Nano tank to me should have nothing more than a pump, heater, and live rock for filtration. All the extra equipment and additives just add to a company's bottom line profit. With this method you do have to stay up on your water changes weekly, but it can be done.

@LSBBA wrote:

I run mine 12 hours. The "dusk" start at 8 am, the daylights kick in at 10, then the daylights go off at 6pm and the dusk out at 8. I do occasionally change things up, like lights out for one day etc to simulate storms/clouds etc. But that is just me playing mind games with the fishies Also, coral grow when they are not photosynthesizing, so keep that in mind.

@LSBBA wrote:

Personally, Brine isnt the most nutritious. Unless before packaging the manufacturing of it includes gut loading the little guys. Keep up a good variety, like with mysis. Also, I dont feed vitamins to my fish.

@LSBBA wrote:

To save a few cents, poly fill at Walmart is the same stuff. I use it, and put it in the first chamber of my BioCube 29. But I also only leave it for a couple of hours before removing it, and I only use it once a week or so. I have a lot of filter feeders, so why would I want to remove their food?

@LSBBA wrote:

I bought my water from walmart - the gallon jugs of Distilled Water for $0.82 a gallon. Distilled is the purest water you can have, and since I use a good quality salt, everything good is put back in the water. I recently purchased an RO/DI Unit and plan to make my own water, and I estimate it will run me about $0.05 per gallon. So if you want to keep up with the water changes, I highly recommend this method. Also, after I got everything stable, and learned how to read my tank, I dont test anymore. But this method is NOT for everyone.

@LSBBA wrote:

A point of contention. Would you like to have the whole ocean to swim in, but be limited to a 15 inch by 20 inch footprint? You dont want to get fish that are territorial in a small space. Even though you may have two fish labeled peaceful, they might not be so peaceful when cramped with other fish.

@LSBBA wrote:

I dont use Chaeto in my nano's, as I often found it getting in my pump area etc. This is something that I learned, that is different from what most people do. But I tried it, it didnt work for me, and I moved on. So just remember to try what seems good, and if it doesnt work, dont do it. I just stay up on my water changes. For my 29, I change 5 gallons a week, and do 10 gallons every 6 weeeks or so when the fancy strikes me.

@LSBBA wrote:

Good. But every tank is different so make sure you observe and take away what works and what doesnt. Some people mix their saltwater for 24 hours before putting it in the tank. I wait 15 minutes till the water is clear, check the salinity, and then use it. Common sense will go a long way in this hobby, and never be afraid to ask questions. You will always have the people that jump down your throat for getting this or that, and over time you will learn to filter them out, and listen to the good advice, from those that want to help you.



EDIT:

On this point:
@LSBBA wrote:

Pistol Shrimp. They love snails, and will take a sleeping firefish any day of the week. Sure the lobster could of done it also, but after watching my pistol take out one of my firefish, and finding all the snail shells in his den when I sold him, thats your killer!

 

[Wes]

And the pistol is just dying to catch that cleaner shrimp too, and he will in time. I have a video of a pistol shrimp hunting and killing a cleaner shrimp somewhere.

 

[txbj]

Wishing you the best with your tank. I had 2-29's & 1- 14 for about 3 years. I loved them. They can be a lot of work, but also a lot of enjoyment. I have sold my 29's & went to a 75. I kept my 14 for a QT tank. The advice I've offered was based on my experience...what worked for me. I used cheato for over a year in section 2 of the tanks, but went back to bags of bio-media. My #'s were better. Using filter floss, actually pillow stuffing from Walmart stuffed tightly in my #1 section was always beneficial to me. I kept it there always, but changed the top 1/2 about every 2-4 days as needed and all of it when I did water changes. I used bags of chemi pure elite (rinsed weekly, changed about every 3 months) & either phos ban or phos guard ( rinsed weekly usually changed monthly) & purigen (rinsed weekly, usually changed monthly) & I would lay a cut to size piece of filter pad over the top in # 2 section. In #3 with the pump I kept the heater & occasionally a bag of charcoal if I felt the water wasn't as crisp looking as usual. In the front tanks I would let a small patch of calpera grow. I kept it trimmed often. I didn't feel the bio skimmer I had was worth the space it took up & stopped using it. I changed 3-5 gal of water every week in the 29's. I kept the visible substrate "vacuumed". I kept the rocks clean by blowing debris off them with a turkey baster before changing the water. I dosed with the Kent nano 2 part & iodine. I had a heavy live rock load in them and kept only 3 fish & a strong CUC of various snails, hermit crabs & peppermint shrimp. My clown pair hosted a frilly mushroom. They still do even tho I have a Sherman RBA just below their mushroom in my 75. I still don't feel 29G is enough for a bubble nem. My tanks were full of zoa, mushrooms, & some LPS. My zoas never kept their color well, I may have over cleaned, I like clean! Everything else thrived. I only had the stock lights which I changed every 9 months. My top off RO/DI water always had a water conditioner added to it. I bought my salt water from Frank at Franks tanks & sometimes my top off water also, but usually I bought the plain ro/di at the grocery store machine (I also used 10-15 G a week in my fresh water tank). I finally bought an RO/DI system when I set up my 75...don't know why I waited so long. For emergency quick cleans, like if one of my grandkids or my sil overfed, I kept a smallish fluval internal filter I could drop in with appropriate filter media on hand.