Help me make up my mind!!

[Sleepingtiger]

I am being overloaded with information, so i must turn to the experts at DFWMAS for advice.

I am not sure if I want to take out my skimmer and build a new sump to accommodate an algae turf scrubber.

Here is my current setup:

90G with about 3" of sand, 50lbs of LR, some LPS, SPS, zoas, shrooms, LNB, CBB, wrasse, and some inverts. Also have a 29G sump which does not have a refugium. I am running what I think is a very good skimmer. I used to have a bio pellet reactor, but since taken it down.

My first love is fish then coral. So my goal is too have an aquarium that has sps, lps a tang, 4-5 anthias, some green chromis, pair of clowns, pyramid butterfly and maybe a dwarf angel. Also, im keeping my CBB and LNB. They will be feed frozen food 4-5 times a day with a mixture of brine shrimp and mysis shrimp. I know, 4-5 times is alot, but i got plans on building an automatic frozen food feeding system.

I recently purchased a new sump that has a section for a refugium. Just as I was about to set it up, I went to pick up some coral from a local member and saw that he had an ATS. I was amazed at how simple his system is. A single box about 7" x 12" is able to maintain his aquarium in great shape, His coral look great. Now I know about ATS, but always skeptical about how effective it is. But i am convinced it can work. Also, his tank was teeming with pods. Pods were everywhere, he doesn't do any phyto. I am guessing the insane amount of pods were a result of the ATS.

Here is my two options:

1) replace my sump with the new one I bought, start up my bio pellet reactor, add live rock to the sump and chaeto, install a neck cleaner to my skimmer and a refugium light.

OR

2) just build a simple sump out of a 20g tall with a DIY ATS system.

option 1 requires that i plump the bio pellet reactor to the skimmer and buy a neck cleaner and refugium light. cost is about $120 up front, but will cost me more money in the long run to power the skimmer, fuge light and bio pellet reactor.
option 2 requires that i build an ATS and new sump with a simple baffle system. cost up front is about $200, but then i can make up some of it selling my skimmer. in the long run, cost will be cheaper because i will only have to run the LED for the ATS.

So help me decide which system to run. I am leaning on keeping a proven system in the skimmer/fuge.

 

[Steve]

My concern with ATS based on the research I have done is both how long it takes before you see any results (several months) and then the stability of it working long term... there is more failure stories then success and the majority of the success reports are based on new systems (six months) and not one that has been running for a year of more... it is interesting that their may be some relationship to pods with ATS as I have not read anything on that... there is so many variables, and what works for one may not work for you, based on salt, water changes and filtration, what type of food you feed and how much, and dosing all impacts the results of any configuration... If ATS was the answer to all of our filtration challenges, more of us would be using that system... We made a DAS system work for years because that is what we had, you can make a ATS system work, but is it the best solution?

 

[Sleepingtiger]

@Steve wrote:

i did do some research on ATS and found there have been systems that have failed. But i concluded that it was based on a failed DIY design that didn't produce any algae. On the systems that did produce lots of algae, it was successful.
the research that you have done, is there a reason why the ATS system failed? was it producing lots of algae, but nitrates and phosphates were still high?

now, to be fair about the pods. the guy had the aquarium lights off so all the pods were out. he also didn't have a fish that ate the pods. however, i thought to maintain pods, you had to have a food source like phyto. am i correct? according to him, he only feeds his fish. i think he is able to maintain a food source for the pods because is doesn't have a skimmer that is removing any beneficial mircro organisms that the pods feed on. in turn, the pods are able to sustain a high population.
I can understand why i don't have any pods, no refugium and I have a LNB, CBB and 6line wrasse that preyed on them. When your lights are off, is your aquarium substrate seem to come alive with pods? do you have phyto?

 

[melev]

My system is three tanks plumbed into one sump with a big refugium. The 60g anemone cube has thousands of pods because there are zero predators in there. The frag tank has many pods as well. The refugium has less. The 400g? I never see a single one, but I have a mandarin and two wrasses in there. I haven't dosed phyto in I don't know how long - many years. The way I see it, the pods in all the other areas eventually work themselves into the 400g. And I know there are more hidden in the rockwork and corals because the mandarin stays fat. (Plus it eats prepared foods too.)

Running a system with an ATS and no skimmer will yield more pods because there is no skimmer to export them. If you can set one up, we could all benefit from your experience if you'll keep it running longterm. I'd love to see a healthy system running an ATS for 3+ years in our area.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

Slovak was the person who had the ATS. Maybe he can jump in and give us his opinion. He said he went on a tank tour and several people had an ATS system setup.

 

[mtraylor]

@Marc wrote:

+1
Would like to see how well people like it and how well it works long term. Not to mention the upkeep of scrubbing the algae off the pad as to how often you have to do it, etc.

 

[mukymuk]

I don't have a traditional ATS, but my system uses chaeto without skimmer for nutrient handling. The reason I use an algae-only export system is because it's easy to do so with the space I have available and because of the size of my system. I would be more than a little hesitant about trying to stick my chaeto tank in a standard aquarium cabinet.

I don't think I'd care to jack with a traditional ATS because I'm pretty lazy and it's not the sort of thing you can neglect for long. In my case, chaeto is supper easy to export compared to scraping algae.

My general feeling about traditional ATS's is that they require more to do less when compared with skimmers for small (less than a few hundred gallons) systems. You can argue the pod issue, but job #1 is getting nutrients handled and it's real hard to go wrong with a skimmer on that point.

That said, maybe you just want to tinker and see what happens? There's a lot of value in that regardless of the outcome. Just keep your skimmer on hand.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

@mtraylor wrote:

+1
Would like to see how well people like it and how well it works long term. Not to mention the upkeep of scrubbing the algae off the pad as to how often you have to do it, etc."]

I read that under optimum condition with moderate feeding, once a week. If you design the the ATS correctly, removing the algae is faster and easier than cleaning a skimmer.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

@mukymuk wrote:

trimming chaeto is easy and can be earn u a few bucks as well.

I read that people who went to an ATS noticed a die off of chaeto in the refugium. Now, that is pretty impressive.

for me, i think i will just setup that refugium with chaeto.

 

[mukymuk]

It's been my experience that just about any kind of macroalgae will outgrow most types of hair-type algae below a critical nutrient level. Above that level, hair-type algae (which I assume is what is mostly used in ATS) will dominate. It may be that hair-algae based ATS's do better in higher nutrient scenarios than macro.

I have experimented with various concentrations of PO3+NO3 with an offline chaeto tank and there definitely is a point above which the chaeto growth will plateau and you start having hair-algae overgrowth issues.

So the caveat seems to be "it depends on your target nutrient level".

 

[Sleepingtiger]

hey since you live within 5 minutes of me, can i get some chaeto if you're ready to trim down?

thinking about setting up my sump today or tomorrow.

 

[mtraylor]

@Sleepingtiger wrote:

+1
Would like to see how well people like it and how well it works long term. Not to mention the upkeep of scrubbing the algae off the pad as to how often you have to do it, etc."]

I read that under optimum condition with moderate feeding, once a week. If you design the the ATS correctly, removing the algae is faster and easier than cleaning a skimmer."]

I'm not so sure about that. My skimmer skim mate goes to a collection cup, so to clean it....all I have to do is wipe the inside of the skimmer with a paper towl and then empty the collector cup. Nice and easy. After I watched this video, there is no way its easier.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD6kA3xDPaM

 

[melev]

Nice video. He did a good job documenting it every week.

 

[Baldguy]

Member DFW has had one in service for a while now. As I understand it he loves it. My question is why if these do so good, as many say, why a vendor does not have one available? Maybe Tunze or Vortech? Maybe because they take so long to get going? I don't know.

 

[ReefJunky]

@Baldguy wrote:

Santa Monica filtration manufactures them

 

[Baldguy]

@ReefJunky wrote:

Santa Monica filtration manufactures them"]
Yep, familiar with them. A DIY hobbyist that went commercial. Would be more comfortable with a mainstream vendor like Tunze or Vortech and the R&D that's they would put into it.

 

[DFW]

I updated my scrubber thread - 2 1/2 years, and counting with no skimmer.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=94362&p=908358#p908358

 

[Sleepingtiger]

@mtraylor wrote:

The guy in the video really goes overboard on the cleaning just so he can show the progress on the video. From what i read, most people only wipe the screen with their hand. Taking it apart and using a scrapper is too much.

When i clean my skimmer, i have to take the head unit off. Take it to the sink and scrub it down. Besides water changes, that is part of the hobby i hate the most.

i think i will go ahead and stick with the skimmer/fuge. to lessen the maint on the skimmer, i will order the swabbie from avast.

 

[Sleepingtiger]

@DFW wrote:

thanks! have you had any serious issue since running the ats? if you had to start over, would u stick with the ATS?

 

[Sleepingtiger]

@Baldguy wrote:

several reasons i think of.

1) its a tough sell to the public saying we have this all in one filtration unit that works by growing algae.
2) the system is too simple. A DIY unit will work just as well as one manufactured. I never heard of good DIY skimmer.
3) Their is no reoccurring cost for the hobbyist. Maybe a pump, maybe a bulb if they design something so obscure that requires a specific bulb.
4) simply put, manufacturers don't think there is money in it at this point. maybe in the future.