Clown fish issues

[brianfarm6767]

Hello,
I have been away from the hobby for a few years and just now coming back since my daughter really enjoys fish, so I thought that was good enough reason to jump back in. Hoping for some help with a current issue I am having.

I setup a QT tank middle of December of picked up two clowns and one firefish to start out my display tank. I put them through the full QT with copper power ranging from 2.25 to 2.50 for the entirety as well as dosing general cure and Metroplex on alternating doses. All three fish were great and healthy the entire time, never saw any signs of issues.

Last night I decided the new display was properly cycled and ready to move the fish over so I made up a batch of fresh saltwater, moved the fish in to that and then moved them into the display so not to bring over any meds or germs from the QT. I got up this morning and noticed that the larger of the clowns is now showing white spots on the skin and fins. From this morning to this evening it looks like more have shown on the fish. Gone through trying to decide if it is Ick, Brook, Velvet or hopefully just something from the stress of the move.

Any help in identifying what is going on and what should be my best course of action is greatly appreciated. I was doing my very best and trying to keep this display as sterile of disease as possible even going as far as figuring out how to QT any new corals and Inverts I would be bringing in, so it is a hard blow to start of the journey of this tank with something like this when I thought i was checking off every box.

 

[brianfarm6767]

Also noticed after tonights feeding that both of the clown fish are not eating much or at all. The firefish is eating great.

 

[HangrightRon]

It could be stress from the move. But, if it gets worse or spreads I'd recommend putting all 3 back into quarantine and leave the display empty of fish for 70-80 days to make sure all ich/tomont are dead. (If it is ich)

To learn from the best about fish diseases search humblefish. Hes the go to for identifying and treating fish diseases.

Edit: I see you've done that already

Also, next time try drip acclimation and use the fresh made saltwater to replace what you take out of the Display instead of stressing them out with water parameters. You can then net or carefully use your hands to put them in the aquarium and disgard the medicated water.

 

[brianfarm6767]

It could be stress from the move. But, if it gets worse or spreads I'd recommend putting all 3 back into quarantine and leave the display empty of fish for 70-80 days to make sure all ich/tomont are dead. (If it is ich)

To learn from the best about fish diseases search humblefish. Hes the go to for identifying and treating fish diseases.

Edit: I see you've done that already

Also, next time try drip acclimation and use the fresh made saltwater to replace what you take out of the Display instead of stressing them out with water parameters. You can then net or carefully use your hands to put them in the aquarium and disgard the medicated water.

Haha yes I posted it on all the forums I have been using to refresh my knowledge on how to do this.

I was going to drip acclimate but then I started to worry about the copper from the QT getting over in the Display, but looking back I should have. Hopefully it all is from stress and humblefish is correct and its not one of the serious issues. Thanks for the input.

 

[HangrightRon]

Best of luck! Keep us posted.

 

[brianfarm6767]

Tried feeding again this morning and neither clown is taking food. Maybe a small bite or two, but nothing like they were through the entire QT process. Tried brine as well as a mixture I had made up of brine, mysis with garlic and selcon mixed in. Firefish is still eating great. I took a few more pictures as well.

<edit by @Fish Think Pink to make pictures larger, full size images>

 

[HangrightRon]

We're you able to do a freshwater dip, like Humblefish suggested?

 

[brianfarm6767]

That is what I am working on now. Have baking soda in the oven so I can buffer the PH of the RODI. I am looking into antibiotics now so if I need to move them back into QT I have a gameplan.

 

[Fish Think Pink]

Try turning off pumps and no food in water (or clean glass) to get a photo of fish to ensure we're looking at spots on fish and not particles suspended in water between camera and fish.

Are you feeding same food in tank what you were feeding in QT? There is no mention of water parameters in new 'just cycled' tank. Your above photos have a lot of sediment in water, perhaps taking photos while watching fish eat. My experiences with adding selcon & garlic to food is that if fish aren't already used to having it mixed in, then they avoid eating food mixed with it. Since the timeline from last evening to right now is only about 18 hours, it could also have to do with moving from one tank to another and then changing tanks... but you wouldn't be reaching out if there wasn't something going on and the mention of spots is suspicious and on just 2 of 3 fish is suspicious.

You probably already looked at this great resource, but I'm linking this in just in case:

 

[brianfarm6767]

Try turning off pumps and no food in water (or clean glass) to get a photo of fish to ensure we're looking at spots on fish and not particles suspended in water between camera and fish.

Are you feeding same food in tank what you were feeding in QT? There is no mention of water parameters in new 'just cycled' tank. Your above photos have a lot of sediment in water, perhaps taking photos while watching fish eat. My experiences with adding selcon & garlic to food is that if fish aren't already used to having it mixed in, then they avoid eating food mixed with it. Since the timeline from last evening to right now is only about 18 hours, it could also have to do with moving from one tank to another and then changing tanks... but you wouldn't be reaching out if there wasn't something going on and the mention of spots is suspicious and on just 2 of 3 fish is suspicious.

You probably already look at this great resource, but I'm linking this in just in case:

Thanks for the input. The QT tank was setup dosing copper power up to 2.5 ppm as well as prime daily to keep ammonia down. I also dosed metro and general cure alternating as recommended by humblefish. They were in there for 30 days before the move. They were moved with the copper still at 2.5, not sure if I should have brought this down before the move or not.

The display was cycled with Dr Tims for right at a month until I saw no ammonia and very little nitrite after dosing ammonia chloride the day before. The Nitrate is still high in the display showing between 20 and 50 on my Red Sea test. I plan to reduce this with water changes but didnt think it would have any effect on fish to move in.

Other than that I keep temps at 78 with salinity at 1.026.

Your thought on the food with garlic and selcon was my thought too, although they had been eating it great in QT. I still had cubes of brine with no additives that I also tried feeding last night and this morning to see if they were not liking the additives for some reason now.

I tried again to get as clear of pictures as possible just now with no food in the water column. Hopefully they are better for you to see.

Thanks for all the input.

 

[brianfarm6767]

Few more

 

[Fish Think Pink]

SO, I'd get them back in QT. They only had the 30 day min quarantine. Given they spotted up, I'd go back in QT for observation and get some food in them, let them settle and then another 30 days of copper in QT, then go at least two weeks with no meds and just observe.

50 nitrate on fish is high if they aren't use to it. Compare it to nitrate in your QT, and it could be the nitrate burning clowns. I'd knock the nitrates back as 50 is the highest I let my FOWLR reach before a 50% water change (30 gallons).

To me, it does look like marine ich (or velvet, more on that below), and they could have been stressed at the store, went into copper for 30 days, then into new tank. You don't know what these fish were going thru before you got them at the store.

Personally, I'm not a fan of 'sterile' because I want strong healthy fish. I HUGELY support quarantine process, and in DFW its nearly mandatory just for salinity reasons with various stores having salinity ranging 1.012 to 1.028 and everywhere in between. I try to keep at about 1.026 because my main tank is mixed reef. Since they have to start in a QT tank, then they can just hang out there longer so I'm sure nothing wicked is coming into my tanks. I've been fortunate that rarely have I had to medicate but ich got into my main tank years ago and I find if I feed well, the fish can kick it and there are things that can be done (UV, vaccum your bottom, etc to help keep the marine ich cycle minimal). Your clowns haven't died, so I don't think its velvet and everything else can be managed IF they are healthy enough, and some of that is going to be outside your control, so please don't beat yourself up. If you are going to go mysis, give them energy with PE Mysis or supplement regular mysis with fish eggs or variety (Reef Frenzy offers a nice option and is relatively new if you were out of hobby for a while). I categorize brine like french fries, unless its live baby brine still with egg sacks.

You are doing the right things, and your fish are very VERY lucky to have you as a Fish Dad. HANG IN THERE!!!

 

[Fish Think Pink]

PS - there is a spot on the forehead of that one clown that makes me wonder if isn't some parasite... but the copper over enough time should kick that IF that is... it also could just be something that got in the way and it isn't anything so don't freak... because what you have already been doing should also help that BUT could just take longer treatment.

 

[brianfarm6767]

PS - there is a spot on the forehead of that one clown that makes me wonder if isn't some parasite... but the copper over enough time should kick that IF that is... it also could just be something that got in the way and it isn't anything so don't freak... because what you have already been doing should also help that BUT could just take longer treatment.

Thanks for the input. I have been going back and forth with Humblefish over on his forums also. I followed his directions and was able to catch the larger clown which was showing the visible issues. I did a 5 minute fresh water dip and put him back into QT. Since then I have seen both clowns eat, not as aggressive as a couple days ago before they were moved, but that is an improvement. Humblefish said to watch them both and treat with antibiotics if they dont improve. Luckily I picked up some nitrofurazone when I first started setting up the tanks so I have that on hand if I need to go that route. I still have copper power on hand also so if they do end up back in QT for the long haul I will use that also. My mixing and holding containers are only 6-7 gallons since I told the wife I would keep everything hidden so they are vittle vaults stored under the guest bathroom sink, but I will do two 5 or so gallon changes to get the nitrates knocked down on the 20 gallon display. I am also attatching a few more images of the fish during and after the freshwater dip.

Thanks for your help.

 

[Fish Think Pink]

Did anything visible drop off during the freshwater dip?

Can't tell from your comments, but I'm suspecting they resumed eating more because they are coming around than because of the dip in freshwater. Stability is the magic in this hobby, and changes are hard on our fishy friends. Food will help strengthen them back up. Glad they are coming around!

 

[brianfarm6767]

Did anything visible drop off during the freshwater dip?

Can't tell from your comments, but I'm suspecting they resumed eating more because they are coming around than because of the dip in freshwater. Stability is the magic in this hobby, and changes are hard on our fishy friends. Food will help strengthen them back up. Glad they are coming around!

I sent a picture and video of the freshwater dip container afterwards to humblefish and he said it didn't look like flukes. There were some small specks in the water, but without a microscope I couldn't tell if I was seeing sand, dust or something coming off the fish.

 

[brianfarm6767]

Quick Update -

Monitored both fish today. Neither show any visible signs of an issues on their body. The larger clown in QT is behaving just like before it was moved, eating and going about his business as normal. The smaller clown is the display is still eating but minimally. At both feedings he may have taken 2-3 PE Mysis pellets, but wouldn't touch the frozen brine. Firefish is eating everything else so I think he is doing fine.

The clown in the display seems to still not be confortable in the display, spending most of the day hiding in or near the rocks, only coming out and swimming for short periods. Maybe he is still just settling in?

Thanks for all the input.

 

[Fish Think Pink]

Brian,
What is going on that only one is back in QT?

I'd keep both clowns together as a lone clown can transition female and then not get along with another that is female. You call out the QT clown is larger, so it's called dibs on female.