Another newbie

C

caracarn

[Hello!

I just joined the club and am going to start up a reef tank (hopefully) soon. Ended up shopping around for an aquarium stand/tank/hood combination that was predrilled and that I could fit into my (modest) income level :)

After hitting several stores and looking online for a month or so for the right "deal", I stumbled on to one that I couldn't pass up at Aquatic Designs in Plano. They had a used 92 gallon corner bow that looked brand new (to me) and was a steal of a deal compared to other shops I had hit, so I finally pulled the trigger!

It's due to be delivered this weekend, since I don't have a truck, and they are offering to plumb and fill and everything for me. The truth is I think I am going to ask them to just drop it where I want it and leave, since I don't want to use the wet/dry that was part of the deal, and I am going to have to do some hood work to allow for the lights I think I am going to want to use.

All that being said, I do have a few questions if someone wouldn't mind helping me out..

1. Due to the kind of unusual shape of the tank, I am wondering what some of you more experienced people would choose to do for lighting. I know I want to use MH, but not sure what wattage, or how many, etc. would be best. Some info on the tank to help with any advice you all may have:

The tank is basically a 34" radius quarter cylinder and 24" tall, and I would like to keep a variety of lps and sps (plan on trying to stick to some hardier ones if they exist for the first year or so until I am comfortable that I will not be torturing these things to death).

2. I have been reading a lot about Deep Sand Beds and even though I am a total newbie, I like the idea of adding to the biodiversity and trying to reduce nitrates, it makes sense to me. I haven't seen any of these at the LFS around (see I am picking up the acronyms already... this is almost scary) and the one guy I talked to at the shop looked at me funny when I mentioned the idea.

I am really thinking about a 4"-5" bed in the aquarium and refugium, and am looking for positive or negative feedback from people who have tried this. I know the beds need a little bit of gentle stirring around the top .5 inches (careful not to disturb the deeper layers) from time to time, etc. This will also reduce the depth of my aquarium, so I don't know if that will mean I can use lower wattage MH or not.

3. Do most of you have RO/DI units in your homes or do you get water from the store? I know that trying to estimate the evaporation I will have to deal with isn't a realistic idea and that the tank will have to be up and running and humidity/outside temps, etc. will make that vary, I am just curious if most of you have one, and if you have any recommendations on brands etc. (I really don't want to go to the LFS once a week for water, I *KNOW* I will lose control of my spending habits if I have to do this.... just too many goodies in there).

4. Before I go a whole lot farther with this, there is still time to back out and run a FO or FOWLR tank and I would (with some regret) if it turns out that this is all well beyond my budget. Obviously I don't believe that it is or I wouldn't have started, and I know that this can easily become an overwhelming wallet-draining addiction.

But my question is, putting aside any livestock or hardware that you may buy once in a while, what do you estimate the monthly bill on your reef tank to be? (I am thinking added electrical costs and suppliment/food/additive type costs).

I know that one COULD spend a small fortune if they chose to, and I am not excessively cheap, I am just really wondering what I can expect to spend on average. I don't think asking someone in a LFS and expecting a realistic answer is going to get me anywhere. Nothing against most of those guys, I just would rather hear it from real folks doing this in their own homes.

I really am not expecting to fill this thing up and get it turned on this month. I need to pace myself, getting lighting and all the rest while keeping a comfortable amount in the old bank account will slow me down a bit. But I really am looking at this as a long-term project and even if it takes a few months to get to the point where I feel like I have the equipment I need to keep the critters I want as happy as they can be away from the ocean, then I can wait.

Anyway, I appreciate you all reading what has turned into a novel of a post, and also appreciate any advice you may have. I look forward to meeting you all at the frag swap too (even though I predict my tank will not be up and running, it will be nice to meet folks in the area).]



Edited By caracarn on 1099543768
 
[First of all welcome and it's great that you are asking all this stuff. If more of us would have done this when we started it would have saved us a lot of time and effort!

1) This one is very much a personal preference so you will probably get many different answers. If it were me I would get one 250W Double Ended (DE) Metal Halide pendant and stick it right in the middle. To may want to run a couple 24" actinics along the edges if you are going to run a 10k or 6.5k bulb.

2) This one is even more opinionated. I love DSBs and have one in my refugium and my smaller tank. There are many many opinions out there but there is no denying that in at least the short run (a few years) they will help lower your nutrient levels with very little effort. Most people do think though that eventually they trap so many nutrients tht they eventually become saturated and crash your tank after a few years. Just read and decide for yourself. I will say this either go deep (at least the 4" you suggested) or go very shallow like an inch or less in between is no man zone and will cause issues.

3) Buy an RODI unit!! It will be the best investment you ever make. You can get a 100GPD rated one on ebay for under $100. They work great and it doesn't take long to pay for itself instead of buying store water. Remeber you will not only use it for topoff (It will probably be ~2 gallons a day for you) but for you water changes also. You will probably go through 100 gallons or so a month. At ~$0.30 a gallon at the store it's only about a 3 month payback.

4) This one is tough. Put it this way if you are willing to go real slow and look at a mostly empty tank for a long time you can do it pretty cheap. I would say between electricity, water, salt, test kits, additives, food I spend roughly $100 a month for my 2 tanks (a 135G and a 20G). (I really spend closer to $300 when you count the calcium reactor, bulb replacement, buying frags/corals, etc)

Since you are wanting to keep LPS and possibly SPS you will have to by additives to boost your calcium and alk up (or get a calcium reactor which I'm assuming from your comments is out of the budget range). That alone will probably cost in the range of $25 a month. You'll need $100 of test kits to start and then salt. If you buy frags of livestock you can pick them up here and there for 5-25 dollars but you have to mentally prepare yourself that it will take a long time to have a tank full of coral. You'll also need to get some strong current going so look at spending at least another $100 on that. Also live rock. Even cheap stuff is $3/lbs and you'll need at least 100 lbs. You may can cheat on this and go with half "dead" and half live and save a little. Get a good skimmer also. Find a used one and you might be able to pick it up for under $200.

Fish are pretty cheap and if you go to the meetings you'll likely win some if you buy raffle tickets. Most of them will live for years and years if you keep your water quality up and don't overstock. Don't forget to budget replace you MH bulbs every year and things like that. Another way to save money is to prepare your own fish food. I do a well balanced fish mixture for less than $10 a month.

So there will be some pretty big upfront expenses but I think you can get away with spending ~$50 a month or less once you get it up and going. My best advice is to save up and do the setup right the first time. Get a great skimmer, MH lighting, good current, etc. The biggest waste of money is buying something that is "good enough for now" because you'll end up buying a better one later trust me!]
 
[Hi Ryan
Welcome to the group! Be carefull asking for opinions we all have them and most are more than happy to share them ever if you don't ask.
First off At 24 inch's deep I would suggest at least a 250 watt halide maybe even a 400 if you plan to keep SPS's and a couple of 24" VHO atinics.
Second I had a deep sand bed and will never do it again! They become nutrient sinks and then your power head falls over digs a hole and all your readings spike. If you you want bio....use the wetdry for a Requiem with liverock and macro algae.
Third you will find most of use ro's if not rodi's at home save a lot of leg work.
How much does it cost...Just electricity and food I figure 75 to 100 per tank and I have 3. But what will really drive you crazy is buying stuff the second or third time. Every one live to say you get what you pay for and in a way the are right but there are some corners you can cut and we all do, eg. I make my own food, build my stand, canopies, and sumps. But A good rule of thumb is if its seams just a little to cheap, it probably is. Just ask here and we will let you know if we know any thing about it.
HTH
Let me know if there is anything I can do
Joe]
 
[Ryan, welcome to the club. I see Barry already gave you your little fishy. :)

You've been doing your research, and that is good. Learning before you make mistakes translates into longer living livestock. As you continue your reading, be sure to stop by my site when you have time as there is a plethora of information there.

I have no doubt that you'll be able to set up a successful reef tank as we have a bunch of great members that are very knowledgeable and have found many ways to make things work.

Typically, one MH bulb should go over a 2' x 2' area. At 24" minus the 4" DSB and the upper lip of the tank, you'll need to penetrate about 19" of water. A 175w bulb would do it, but due to the shape of your tank, a 250w bulb would be better. Keith suggested a DE bulb (doubled ended) - if you go that route you'll need a piece of glass between the bulb and the water to block/shield UV rays from burning your corals. If you got a unit with a 'mogul' bulb, you don't need the glass divider.

I think a DSB is just fine, and have seen reef tanks that went for years and years successfully. On ReefCentral.com in the Large Tanks forum, check out the 800g reef that has been up for over 8 years. I've used a DSB in my 55g reef and had great success. The latest wave has been to go barebottom which actually goes back to the 80s. Bottom line, I don't like the austere or pristine look of it, but others will swear by them and defend them tirelessly. If you go with a DSB, you'll need some livestock to keep the sand turned, such as a Fighting Conch, a TigerTail Cucumber, nassarius snails, hermits and more.

RO/DI water is the way to go. They (RO units) come up for sale on our board from time to time, and there is a group buy going on for them now if you are so inclinded.

Spending money per month is tough to answer, as it varies quite a bit. If all you buy is fishfood, you'll get by cheaply. However, our club has a lot of group buys and you hate to miss out on those because you'll get quantity at lower prices and you just KNOW you need one (insert item here) too. :) I've had up to 4 tanks running in my home and there is a good chance I spent $100 a month merely in ulitities. Now I have a giant tank and it costs me a bit more, I fear. (I don't reeeeally want to figure it out, you know what I mean?)

Keep asking questions.
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[Stopping in before work and wanted to thank everyone for the advice and encouragement so far. Also to say I may have kind of overstated my cheapness in the first post.

I was overly concerned because a lot of fish stuff I have seen on hold in the stores has "Dr." in front of the name and I wasn't sure I was going to be able to really afford an addiction that I thought was going to be reserved for Doctors and Lawyers (the 2 types of offices I normally see these reef aquariums in, if they are in an office). Noone really was giving me ANY guidance on what the monthly supply/maintenance costs would be, from what I am reading, I can afford it without too much trouble :)

If it comes down to going a little slower in order to afford the right kind of gear, that's what I am planning on doing. So far the RO/DI thing seems to be something everyone agrees will be necessary, I'm going to check out the group buy later :)

I've gotten a pm, and seen some replies that say that DSB's are fine as long as I get some sand stirring critters. I am wondering though if there are some I should avoid (gobies, crabs, stars) for a while until the bed "establishes" itself which can take a few months to a year from what I read.

I just don't want to jump in on something too early that will end up eating too much stuff in the sand and defeating one of the main reasons I would like to have one. But I also don't want 100-150lbs of concrete in the bottom of my tank ;)

Thanks!]



Edited By caracarn on 1099581924
 
[Keith, a fighting conch is a sand sifter. It is just fine.

Ryan, you don't want a sand-sifting starfish, that is the one guy that will decimate your live sand. If you find a critter you'd like to get, just post it here and you'll quickly get a response.

This can be a very expensive hobby, but it isn't off the charts. There are high school students that have their own tanks and find a way to pay for it. Being used equipment usually saves about 50% of the cost involved, but runs the risk of a lack of longevity.]
 
[Your biggest money savers are time and patience.
Your biggest money savers are time and patience.
Your biggest money savers are time and patience.

All that to the side,
Your biggest money savers are time and patience.

and watch for the deals offered here on the board. This is an expensive hobby. You can make it almost bearable by following your strategy so far: Buy Used!! Buy frags and watch them grow over time - that's the joy of this hobby.

Keep it simple. It doesn't have to be the Best, it just has to be Gudenuff! That will save you tons of bucks from the git-go.

Always, always, always have your common sense filter plugged-in and turned up.]
 
[Ok, I am looking at lighting now, and here is what I am thinking:

1 x 250w Double ended MH light (I was looking at this one http://www.specialty-lights.com/al00080.html to sit right in the middle of the top.

and 2 x 24" VHO actinics running along the sides (in a V since I am in a corner tank).

Now, I haven't checked any other sites yet, so that price is the only one I have on the MH lamp, wondering if this is typical/an ok deal/a ripoff. I am also wondering if this is not enough light/overkill/just right.

I was looking at Marc's site and I really love the Psammacora portraits. I have a book with a picture of a HUGE one of those in the ocean but it didn't have a caption as to what kind of coral it was. Would this lighting setup suffice if I wanted to keep some of that?

What I am thinking is once the tank/stand/canopy are delivered, I will end up making a stronger wood version of the lift off section of the top of the canopy (it is kind of pie shaped, but made of about 1/8" plastic that seems pretty weak and flexible, also most likely melt prone for what I want to do).

I'll cut some wood in the same shape and cut a hole in the middle where I can set the pendant-style MH fixture because I think trying to put it inside the current canopy would only leave about 3" from the glass shield to the water surface. I'll either laminate some black pvc (sintra) to the wood or paint it black on the outside to match the rest of the canopy, and find some mylar (any suppliers locally besides The Gas Pipe? ;)) to cover the inside.

This seems like a decent plan to me, will keep the light about 7" above the surface of the water. I know that might not be ideal, but I really want as little light as possible leaking from anywhere in this thing but the front glass (the back/sides of the pie shape are already blacked out) :) I already have plans for fans in the back of the canopy, and know that it cannot be totally light tight, but I'll probably make some box light traps out of black gatorboard if possible. I guess I am looking for someone to say "sounds like that'll work" or "nice theory, new guy, but welcome to reality!"

I'm not going to flush this up against the corner wall, I am thinking 12" to 18" away from the wall, and I'll get some of those modular black bookcase/cabinet things from Lowe's to put on either side, can always use more shelf/drawer space, and I believe they are on casters so I can move them out of the way and still have a bit of room to squeeze behind the whole thing if necessary. It'll also give me some more usable space back there hopefully, I have the feeling this wedge shaped stand is going to really crimp my style as far as room for equipment goes.

I also appreciate the link on this site that went to the DIY Durso standpipes. Any other tips for silencing tanks are welcome :)]
 
[You are really doing well, thinking this out as you progress. The price of that lights seems a little high to me. Also, because it is a mogul bulb, it doesn't even need the glass cover plate. Here are some other sites that are good:

Premium Aquatics
Champion Lighting
Hello Lights
Marine Depot
and more....

This is a nice light set up for $250, but really more than you need for your tank. 250w Pendant A retro kit might be an even better bargain, because you don't need the pretty casing in your corner unit, and it sounds like you are quite handy.

However, your idea as described above will work and don't let me stop you. A Psammacora will do well under PC lighting or MH in my experience. It isn't a fast grower, but it is a pretty one.]
 
[Ryan
congrats, I just joined the club myself couple of days ago .
let us know what you do for lighting, I'm looking to upgrade mine to expand my options for corals.]
 
[I have to say, getting my first reef aquarium delivered and having it set in place is quite an exciting feeling even though I won't be filling it up for some time (Christmas holidays will set me back another month, I fear).

Anyhow, It came with a Sealife Systems combination Wet/Dry/Skimmer thing that looks tailor made for fish store shelves, but is not what I want to use on this tank. I am thinking that it would work on a Quarantine system, but I don't think it would be something that I would even be comfortable putting up for trade since I don't know how well it works.

The "As-Is" part of this deal seems to be covering the standard 2 fluorescent light fixture that came with it, one of the bulb sockets on it is broken. Instead of trying to fix it I will probably scavenge the reflectors for the VHO lights that I want to install.

I had read about (but never seen) a filter box that had a low set of holes in it to return water. I must have been excited about the deal I was getting and trying to pay for it as quickly as possible in the store, because I didn't notice this tank has them. They are set up about 3" from the bottom, and being the total newbie that I am I was concerned about them draining the tank if the power went off until I got back there and saw the second piece of acrylic/plastic that runs all the way up to the top set of "teeth" on the box. I am assuming the current through the bottom set won't be very strong at all and won't be a hinderance to my plans for a DSB.

As near as I can tell the return pump that came with it is a Mag 7. It doesn't have any name brand stamped on it, but I googled some of the phrases on the label and "Model 7 Utility Pump" took me to a page that had a photo that looks like the pump I have. The spec sheet I am finding on this pump says that it can push 420gph at the ~5' head from the bottom of my stand to the top of the return box. That is just too low (for a 92g tank) if I am reading some stuff correctly, can anyone offer me some advice?

Many thanks!]
 
[Ryan,
I have a new 90G RR Oceanic. I bought a Mag 9.5 for the return pump, but I'm "T"ing the return between the tank and back into my sump's refugium area.

When I was doing a freshwater test on the bulheads for leaks and trying out my closed loop I plugged a Mag 7 in for a return, since I didn't have anything larger yet. The flow is somewhat less than ideal IMO, but it does work.

If you're trying to save some money in the short run, you'd probably be fine using the current pump for a while.

Keep asking questions early and often. I ask a ton of 'em and they haven't shot me yet. :D]
 
[Welcome to the board Ryan. It sounds like you may have a similar tank to my 92-gal RR. I am really enjoying mine more so than the 90-gal tall we used to have. It's much easier to maintain.
It came with 4-36" VHOs bulbs & 2-12 1/2" PCs with a Radio Shack fan so there's not much concern over the heat from the bulbs. The pump keeps the water heated from 78-80 degrees.
I'm running a Mag 9.5 on mine also. Keeps everything moving and swaying. Mine also came with the wet/dry filter sump that I'm slowly converting over to a refugium/sump.
There are quite a few people on this board who have been educated using the OJT method. They've been where you are now. Don't be afraid to ask about anything.]



Edited By No_Floaters on 1099780883
 
[Yay, thanks to Nathan for bringing over the MH light fixture he sold to me. 400 watts of Lava-Making power!

While I had already planned on making modifications to the canopy that came with the tank, now I will plan on just making an entire new one, this light will need to be 16-18" off the top of the water in my tank, I think.

The good news is that I should have PLENTY of light for any sps's or even a clam after I get my system up and running and I am confident of my ability to keep the water quality both good and stable.

Thanks again Nathan, heck of a deal, just what I needed :)]
 
@cpalmist wrote:
[Your biggest money savers are time and patience. Your biggest money savers are time and patience. Your biggest money savers are time and patience.] said:
[Yes, patience is virtue. :)]
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