Tank Cycling- Input appreciated

G

GoldenNugget

So I started a new tank 3 months and 6 days ago after slowly collecting all the items I needed. Right before I started the tank, I was only missing one key ingredient for my set up, live rock. I had already spent 6 months collecting the necessary equipment to set up my 95 gallon tank and I did not want to wait another 2 months collecting the money for 100+ lbs of live rock. A local had 250 lbs of dead rock stored from a tank he tore down a year previous to me purchasing it. Dry as a bone in the Australian outback, but he only wanted $100 for it all. I couldn't pass up on the offer so I went ahead with the purchase thinking nothing of it. I knew it would take longer for my tank to cycle using dry rock, but I thought the live sand would at least help things get moving. After about 1 month and a half my API water tests showed my nutrients 0 across the board. Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrite, all 0. There were some diatoms on the sand and a few rocks already had coralline algae on them. So I introduced 3 chromis to the tank to see how they would fare. The first one died in about a week and a half, the second lasted 2 weeks and a few days. I got nervous so I did a 50% water change and the last one lived for quite a while longer than the others and died a little more than a week ago. None of them showed any signs of stress and labored breathing, in fact the last one that died looked fine when I went to work the morning he died and I came home to see his dead body stuck up against a power head. I have some other fish in a smaller 30 gallon quarantine I was planning on putting in this tank, but I am worried about doing so as water changes would be harder on a larger tank in case things go south, plus they have been doing fine in the QT for the past 7 weeks. This whole time I have testing the water daily and all my nutrients still measure at 0 or are undetectable. The coralline algae spots are growing slightly, by the day and definitely not dying or receding. In the past with the tanks I have set up using live rock, I was able to put fish and coral in after just a couple of weeks, without a single loss of life to my name. Now this... Im worried about adding any new fish and I am not sure when to. Has anyone ever started a tank with nothing but dry rock and live sand only? What is your analysis of the situation? Am I going to have to wait an entire 6 months or so for the tank to cycle properly? If so, what a drag.
 
Did you ever see the ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates numbers rise above zero while the tank was cycling? After the first fish died, did you check the numbers again? I used dry rock also, but put in some fish food and a piece of shrimp (the eating kind, not the "living in my aquarium" kind) which would start to decay and get the cycle started.

I'm not sure how that would kill your fish though, unless the bacteria level in the tank was so low that even those three little fish caused an increase in ammonia levels that the bacteria couldn't keep up. But it seem like that's a big tank for that to happen with just three chromis. And a test kit should have definitely shown that.

Anything that could have contaminated the water? Where'd the water come from?
 
Only thing I can think of at the moment would be some sort of toxins or chemicals that may have leached into the rock while it was stored or perhaps expired or bad test kits? I would want to know more about the rock as in whether it was stored in a sealed container or left exposed in a garage with a bunch of chemicals like weed killer or bug spray in the area. Do you have anyone in your area who you can have double-check your readings on your tests?

I would think dead rock that was just stored would at least have some die off that would register something on one of those tests you ran unless it was just completely and thoroughly cleaned before being stored.
 
you could use pure ammonia to raise your ammonia to 1-3ppm, wait 24 hrs and retest. if it's cleared your bio filter should handle a couple fish easily. if anything but nitrate showing up, you need to cycle further with a continuous source of ammonia, such as a raw shrimp. if your tank clears the ammonia and you add a healthy, eating fish from qt, and it dies I would suspect contamination of some sort...

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@Mike wrote:
... I would want to know more about the rock as in whether it was stored in a sealed container or left exposed in a garage with a bunch of chemicals like weed killer or bug spray in the area. ... said:
+100

As well as what chemicals may have been used by the previous owner while the rock was in use.
Click to expand...
 
I just saw the replies and I had to leave a quick comment... OH MY GOODNESS! About the possibility of contamination.. The rocks were stored in 2 large Tupperware containers, both closed, but who knows what he did with them before he put them in there. Im almost done here at work, and will provide the rest of the details shortly after I get home. I shouldn't even be on here now [smilie=itwasntme.gif] but I had to take a peek. These are some good replies and I think we are headed in the right direction. BB shortly. Thank you everyone.
 
Oks o like I said, when I purchased the rock it was in a Tupperware container and the he said it had been dry for over half a year. When I got it, I soaked them in water for a little over a month due to my paranoid nature. There was some sludgey material, which I believe was die off in the first vats of water I had them in. By the last change of water and them sitting in there for a week, there was no more sludge and the water remained almost pristine. That's when I let them dry out in the tubs for another week before I set up my tank. Initially, there was barely any ammonia in showing up on the tests at .25. none of the tests ever showed up higher than the first color bar of the API chart. After about a month and a half, they went down to undetectable. The test kits I used were brand new, which I had bought just for this tank. I will be taking a few samples to DNA and see if they match my results. There are a few snails I originally put in, that are still alive, including a few crabs. I originally put in 5 snails and 5 crabs, and in the first couple weeks 2 of each died, but 3 of each are still alive, even though 2 of the snails are usually hanging around the top of the water line, as if they are not enjoying the water, but still alive all this time. Wouldn't chemical leaching into the water also affect the diatoms and coralline algae? both which in the last few weeks have been growing steadily. Im starting to suspect that the extra dry rock might be whats behind this and that the ammonia never really got a chance to do its thing, especially after I did that 50 gallon water change after the first fish died, on top of it not showing up in my tests ever since the first month and a half. Could it just be a case of a cycle not being completed? I've never had a cycle take anywhere near this long, even though I have been reading online and some people say it could take a full 6 months for a tank to cycle properly. But the coralline algae is whats getting me. How is it growing while the tank isn't even cycled? Is this not unusual?
 
you need some source of ammonia to keep the cycle going, either through die off on live rock, adding a raw shrimp, ghost feeding, or adding pure ammonia, eventually your fish. without a food source the bacteria will die back, I still think you should try spiking the ammonia to see how your tank handles it, that's what I would do anyway.
maybe I missed it but did you do any testing for ammonia or nitrite when you had the fish deaths? also have you ever seen any nitrates? last, on the reading of .25, did you read it at exactly five minutes? longer can cause a false positive..

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Glad to hear you took some precautionary steps when you got the rock. I would do what was suggested above and try to spike the levels a little to get a reading of some sort. One of the things I did when cooking rock was to let it seed and sit with other live rock while ghost feeding to keep the bacteria populations up as has been suggested.
 
OK, so I have a new problem. I tried spiking the ammonia in the empty tank with a block of Mysis shrimp every other day. Testing daily, I can never get the ammonia to show on the API test kit. A dark-ish yellow across the boards. DNA showed the same results on their tests. The last few snails and crabs are still alive. I noticed I have 4 snails still kicking, not 3. The new problem is, my diatoms are receding to an almost non-existent level. Im not sure, if this is the good part of the cycle where they are supposed to start disappearing, if I simply just don't have enough nutrients to support their growth. Usually in past tanks, they went to a dark brown stage, but this time it never got darker than a light brown stage as shown in the image above. It could be that the other fish died because I didn't have my chiller hooked up to the system when they were in there, as it was on my QT with my more expensive blacker ice clown and dejardini sailfin. Now, my sailfin seems to be having his own issues (I'm not sure if its because he has been in the QT for 3 months now waiting to go into the DT). I just don't want to put him into a tank where I know he will die in a few days. He used to be an active swimmer in the QT (30 long) and ate like a pig from day one, but now he barely nips at the food I introduce into the tank, and wont even touch his seaweed for the past couple of days. I am almost considering just putting him into the DT to see if it helps with his behavior. He's not breathing harder or anything. Its just for the past few days, he has been sitting in one spot between the PVC and has not moved from there, just floating above the floor. It's rather worrying behavior. If my snails are still alive, shouldn't that mean the water cant be that toxic? WHAT SHOULD I DO? I'm thinking about just doing a 50% water change and attaching the chiller to the DT and letting him free in there. This has been my most confusing almost 4 months in the hobby. Never had any issues before.
 
So, he finally moved, but now is hiding out in a PVC corner joint, not leaving that spot. I did a 10% water change for good measure. The clown that is in the QT with him is moving around and enjoying himself as usual and eating as well. I just noticed even more coralline algae on the rocks. It's doubled at least. What gives? Am I just being paranoid and everything is going accordingly?
 
OK, so something is breaking down the ammonia if you aren't seeing anything on tests. What is the temp getting up to without the chiller?
How big is the qt? Maybe clown is stressing sailfin?
My clowns are obnoxious, earned their own tank. But I don't know the temperament of the sailfin, never kept them...

I think, if temp was acceptable range, I would move the clown to DT and see how he does, while watching sailfin in qt. Depending on your coral, maybe reduce lighting to help with temperature, if needed (assuming lights are causing increase), or adding a fan for evaporative cooling temporarily. Again all that depends on temp range you are seeing.

I would also add one of the ammonia alert badges to your display so you could easily see if it started to spike.

What is your setup on the DT? Size, lights, sump, etc.


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I generally agree with the above, especially regarding the Ammonia Alert except perhaps you could try a damsel in there first and see what happens if you are concerned about the cost of the clown?
 
my thought on a damsel, or another cheap fish, was that he has not had one in qt so adding one to display, just to try to get it out, then to leave DT fallow before moving fish from qt in, seemed like a bit much. Then, if the clown is causing the sailfin to stress, now you would be looking at setting up a separate qt, since you put a new fish in the display.

Also, new fish from lfs would be of unknown health and a death would not really give any more definitive information. That's another reason I would move the clown, you have quarantined it, you describe him as healthy and eating. unfortunately, at this point that is the healthy, qt fish available (although expensive).

I would be more inclined to keep the sailfin in qt, since he is acting weird. if sailfin goes in the display and dies, then we still have a question of health prior to moving..

just my thought process on recommending the clown go in...
a damsel is certainly an option..


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Get a Red Sea Test kit for Nitrates, API starts reading at 5ppm. Could just have a Low Nutrient system and everything is good. API isn't really a good test kit IMO. Its more for a general Area, like a hand grenade. If snails and Clown are doing good i would look at the breathing rate of Sail Fin. I would do a Prazepro bath or treat your entire QT system.
 
All good points and a very tough call. I've been very busy with all these concerns and I decided to move the sailfin to the DT. He doesn't show any signs of disease physically, but he is acting the same way in the DT. Although he is still alive, he has not even a thing in 2 weeks. he lightly nips at the algae on the sand and the rocks, but I am sure he is getting nothing from it. There couldn't have been much for him to accidently swallow in the QT, so I'm not sure that he has a foreign object stuck in his belly. He's got all this room to swim in the 90 long, but stays in one spot, all by his lonely. I really don't know what else there is left to do. The diatoms have slightly grew darker since I put him in the tank, but all my parameters are still reading 0. Just in case I have some product to bind the ammonia. I'm going to post a picture of him, so please let me know if anyone sees anything wrong with him. I simply don't have enough room to start another QT in my office, as it is hot and I would need another chiller. I'm going to get rid of a non essential tank so I can move the chiller to the QT.
 
Try using a rubber band to attach some nori to rocks or sandwich some nori in between rocks where he can get to it. That's how I got some tangs to start eating. You can then move the nori to a clip and then start feeding other foods once it figures out where to go and what to eat.
 
Dummy started to eat again :) Over three weeks with no food and a week and a half in the DT and now hes eating again. Chomping down on Nori, and he looks fine in the DT. Guess I'll be adding the clown in there with him as soon as I can buy a new fish for the QT. I am so happy! :)
 
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