South down tropical sand

[Dr M]

[I am wondering where I can get some south down sand. I now it is hard to come by, but I am just wondered if any body could point me in the right direction to find some.]

 

[Dr M]

[Dah, Thanks I looked all over the net and had no luck. Wouldn't you now it was right under my nose the whole time.
Thanks]

 

[drew96]

[In the for sale section bevoxxx is selling 100 lbs. of live sand for $40. Cant beat that price.]

 

[Rick]

@drew96 wrote:

[You can not just take live sand out of one tank and put it into another. Especially if it has been in use for a year or so. Now if the sand was a month or two old and someone took down their tank that soon fine. You could use a cup or two from that sand if it still being kept in water to seed a new sand bed.]

 

[Reefette]

[???

Quote:
You can not just take live sand out of one tank and put it into another.

:nod: Yes you can.

I've done it before several times and it really works wonders. The new tanks I've added live sand to never even went through "new tank syndrome." Of course, you must first make sure the tank conditions are where they should be before adding all that life (Live Sand).]

 

[Rick]

[If you take sand from a dsb that was in an established tank. You are going to have major die off of critters that live in the top layers that end up underneath the sand. And you are going to release the toxins and bacterias to the new tank that were built up in the anerobic regions of the sand. The new tank is going to have major problems. I know people that have tried it and never were able to do anything with their tank until they replaced the sand bed. Go on ReefCentral and do a search on it, you will find the same answers.]

 

[Dr M]

[Thanks anyway for the tip on the live sand for sale but I am just setting up a fish only tank for a friend. He wanted the look of really fine sand. I remember south down looked really fine and I wanted to see how much it cost. I am pleased to see it was only $15.00 for 50lbs.

Any other imput on some better sand for the money would be great. BTW I think he wants it to be as white as can be.]

 

[Rick]

[Go to a local masonry supply store and ask for fine white silica sand. It is very fine, white and looks great. It will cost you about $8.00 a hundred. It works great and does not cloud up the tank for a week. I have used the stuff for years in a reef tank.]

 

[terry]

[I'm sure there are others that are much more knowledgable than I am and I am not knocking anything that works for anyone. I know I have read others successfully using many kinds material for a "sand" bed. I thought I read somewhere to avoid silica sand (something about irritating particles). I know I read that Southdown is supposed to be pure arragonite which is supposed to have desirable water buffering properties. You might want to do some reading before going with silica.]

 

[halsmgd]

[I think what Rick is saying is you don't need SD aragonite sand with a fish-only tank. Calcium buffering is only useful for corals.]

 

[Reefette]

[

Like humans, calcium is also important in the proper development of fishes skeletal system. If you want your fish to be healthy and even grow calcium is important.]

 

[halsmgd]

[I'll buy it that a fish needs calcium to grow, but do they get it from the water column or their food supply? I had never heard of calcium levels in your water's chemistry affecting a fish's growth.]

 

[Reefette]

[halsmgd,

Consider this...

We get floride from our water.
We get vitamins from various foods.

Fish both drink water and eat food. If fish are totally 100% reliant on the calcium in food products there is always the chance they will not be getting enough.

Most fish foods are very difficult to determine exact amounts. (Sadley, There have been studies done that even suggest many labels are not as accurate as the manufactures claim. Unfortunate but true.) The only sure way to be absolutelly certain that the proper amounts of calcium are, in fact, reaching your fish is to keep tank conditions as close to their natural habitat. Thus meaning calcium is in the water and food.

Hope this makes more sense.]

 

[terry]

[Somehow I missed the line about fish only. I might not have even posted if I had noticed that, but that is not the only reason for using aragonite. First of all will it be a truly fish only or will there be live rock and inverts. I know they would appreciate the arragonite. Aragonite does supply calcium but I believe it is also a very valuable PH buffer. I have also read that silica is less porous so it cannot hold as much bacteria growth as aragonite. I have also read that silica promotes the growth of undesirable diatoms and algae.

It just seems to me that for the small difference in price the benefits far outweigh the savings.]

 

[Rick]

[I would like to add that I read about a year on ReefCentral forums and other sources before I set up my first tank. Here is a quote from Dr. Ron Shimek from his lengthy article about setting up sand beds in tank. Quote "The organisms do not care about the sediment mineral composition, only the particle sizes and shapes. Most aquarists use the commonly available aragonitic sands to "provide a calcium reservoir." Additionally their bright white color is often aesthetically pleasing. However, if the system's pH and calcium concentrations get low enough to dissolve significant amounts of the sediment there are some very severe problems and all the sand in the world won't help. Very successful tanks may be set up utilizing black lava sand, or fine siliceous sand, as long as the grains are of the appropriate size. There is some concern that siliceous sand will fuel diatom blooms, but such blooms may be controlled by the appropriate grazers."Unquote. Additionally I have read that silica sand does not put any silica into a tank itcomes from other sources.
As far as buffering ability from an argonite based sand its so minute that you never see it. I also know that I have not had the problems with my sand bed that I have seen in a sand bed from southdown such as the sand clumping together.
As far as calcium buffering thats funny, no reef tank is going to keep the calcium up without adding a caclium reactor or other additives. In a fish only tank, there is going to be plenty of calcium in the water from any good synthetic salt mix. And it will stay at an acceptable level by doing regular water changes.
Anyone that can show me any article written that says anything different about silica sand I would be glad to read it. But after seeing the success that I have had keeping both fish and growing sps corals, it would be hard for me to believe anything bad is coming out of the 400lbs of silica sand in my tank.]

 

[terry]

[Rick,

I will never suggest that there is only one way to do anything. If something works for me I'm not going to change it just so I can agree with the crowd. I am only stating things that I have heard and read.

First I agree that bacteria does not care what KIND of surface that it grows on. That was not the point the point is that the same amount of silica sand and aragonite sand does not have the same amount of surface area. The aragonite is more porous therefore the same amount of silica sand CANNOT support as much bacteria as aragonite.

Second the quote you supplied was referring to the dissolving of "significant amounts" of the sediment. Again that would be true the buffering takes place very slowly and in very small amounts "significant amounts" would definitely be a sign of major problems.

Third The only things negative I said about silica (besides being less porous) was that I had read it could cause undesireable diatom and algae blooms. The quote you supplied did not say that silica did not cause them they just said to throw grazers at it.

Fourth If you know anyone that has southdown sand that is clumping I would almost bet money that they are also adding a calcium buffer. It is the additive that is precipitating into the sand and clumping it. The sand is unlikely to clump on it's own.

Fifth I completely disagree that the buffering ability of aragonite is "minute". I went to Google and did a search on "aragonite buffering". I got 855 hits from chemists, college studies,and many reef related sites. I only read small portion but the ones I read said basically the same things the following is from wetweb

From practicle fishkeeping:

In the same article:

Coral sand may also
contain small quantities of silica, which can encourage the growth of certain undesirable diatoms and algae

Quote:

You also mentioned calcium reactors. The media used for calcium reactors is calcium carbonate. Aragonite IS calcium carbonate. I know there is at least one calcium reactor on the market that uses aragonite for the media.

After saying all of this I repeat I am NOT saying that what you are doing is wrong or dumb. In fact I envy your success. So far I have not had any luck with SPS. I don't have Southdown but I do use aragonite. One thing I'm sure of is that my lack of success is not because I'm using aragonite.

IMO there are only two reasons for not using aragonite (IF you are using any sand). There is NO advantage to using silica sand that I know of with the following 2 exceptions.

1) The appearance. This is a big factor. There are many choices available that are "prettier", and they WILL "work" as a bacteria bed. They will have less or (in the case of silica) absolutely NO buffering ability.

2) Cost. At $15 per 50# so what if you can save 20 or 30 dollars buying silica. Until recently the savings would have been huge because the Southdown was nearly impossible to get locally. Just not that much of a factor anymore.

Finally! I am not arguing or denying your success. I believe that you have been very successful with silica sand. I even agree with a lot of what you said.]

 

[Rick]

[In most reef tanks the favored ph is to be above 8. Preferably about 8.2-8.3 I think most would agree. If that's the case then that alone would keep the argonite sand from buffering practically no calcium. Thats why you get calcium deposits from the calcium you add to the tank, such as from a calcium reactor because we keep the alkalinty and ph up. Now if the ph and alkalinty were really low below the 7.5 -7.0 range you would start to see the argonite sand start to release calcium into the tank, plus everything else. That why you have to get the ph about 6.5- 7.0 range to start dissolving the calcium from the media in a calcium reactor.
I am certainly not saying using an argonite sand is bad for the tank sandbed. It great to use as a sandbed.
I am just saying that it is not necessary and certainly not worth any added expense.
As far as the sand clumping because as you said, they are adding a calcium additive. How many people do you know with a reeftank that do not have a calcium reactor don't add some kind of calcium additive? Even just adding kalkwasser is such an additive.
I just went through this with someones tank and saw the effects of the sand clumping together.]

 

[terry]

[According to the quote from wetweb in my previous post

In this case (a fish only tank) if he uses aragonite and even minimal water changes he should not have to use any calcium additive or reactor. If he uses silica I think he will at least need to do more frequent water changes. (Not saying that is a BAD thing)

I have aragonite and use B-ionic (in a reef setting I never meant to say that aragonite will eliminate the need for any additives because most of us keep our calcium levels above natural seawater) and I have never seen a clump in my sand. My calcium always tests above 450 (usually 470-480).

I am not trying to be a lemming about aragonite but there is an overwhelming number of people that believe that aragonite is a beneficial buffer in any saltwater tank that uses a sand bed. That doesn't mean that they have to be right because there are so many I just happen to agree.

I will say one last time I am NOT saying don't use silica because it will "harm" your tank. I'm only saying that I would use aragonite because I believe it will help the tank.

It seems to me the only real disagreement we have is the buffering capability of aragonite. I am not a chemist. I only suggest that everyone in this situation read all that they can and decide on their own.]

 

[halsmgd]

[

Ding-ding-ding The light bulb just turned on for me. So that's why my calcium reactor needs CO2. It all makes so much sense now. Thanks Rick!

Hey, I still need to stop by your place and see that set-up. Will you be around this weekend?]

 

[Rick]

[Terry,
and the debate continues :eyebrows: I went back and found a similar post on ReefCentral that I read back almost two years now. As you will read it the same thing was debated then. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=69995

"So that's why my calcium reactor needs CO2."
When add Co2 to the water it make the ph drop in the water becoming more acidic. The lower the ph the more acidic things become. You can get it too low and it will turn your media to mush and the calcium reactor will be clogged up.
I will be around most of the weekend except for a couple of kids basketball games that day. Your welcome to come anytime I am around. Just let me know.]