Salt Analysis Project by MARSH and Eric and Kim

[Isis]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to let you guys know of a project we are doing and seeing if you would like to help. Basically, we are anyalyzing how fast several types of corals grow in several different brands of salt. This is different then previous projects that attempted to simply look at the chemical composition of salts. In scientific jargon, this is called a "bio-assay" since the we are measuring the biological impact of the salts. We are also comparing the salts and their consistancy from sample to sample.

I am working with Eric, along with the support of MARSH members, by donating the samples of salt, test kits, labor, etc., but we would like your help too. What we need are samples of unopened containers of various different brands of salt, but we do not need the whole container. What we would like is for you to donate 2000 grams (4.4 lb.) of salt from your next purchase of salt. Here are the brands we need: Tropic Marin, Reef Crystals, Coralife, Kent, HW Marine and Red Sea. We are testing Oceanic and IO, but we have plenty of those samples. Also, it is imparative that each donation have the date of purchase, place of purchase and the size of the container/bag to be documented. That information can be written with a Sharpie on a tightly sealed, large ziplock bag that has all the air removed. The original container/bag must be unopened when the sample is taken. That is, a freshly opened, new container.

As for getting the samples to us, they can either be mailed or somehow picked up. Once option done by MARSH was a group order from one of the online retailers. We all purchased some salt and had it shipped to the lab. From there we collected the samples. The remaing salt was given back to the club or the people who purchased it. We can arrange to have the samples sent back to the club for distribution if this option is taken.

You can PM me here or email at kim.price@marshreef.com

This is a very worthwhile project that could really help us all. I would really like to see our members get behind this project. There is no data like this available, just the unproven claims of manufacturers. If nothing else it will provide some good info to add fire to our usual "best salt" debates. I would really appreciate anything you can do to help out. If anyone makes regular trips to Houston that could deliver them, that would be appreciated also.

Here is a link to the forum where we discuss everything and post pictures of the tanks.
http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=20
Here is the gallery where we have all the pics...
http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?set_albumName=Salt-Study&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php
Here is the list of salts we have already collected and what we are needing.
http://www.marshreef.com/TOTM/salt%20list.htm
That list indicated we got the water from the UTMB Cephalapod Center, but it is now being collected from the Flower Gardens.
This is the old protocol, we are no longer doing it with Reef Savers, and the protocol has be changed quite a bit and we will be updating it soon.
http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=12

 

[melev]

I just checked out all 170 images. I'm not sure that I want to use any of the salts now. :shock:

Why does the water turn cloudy after each water change? How long is the mixing procedure? Are you letting the water mix / age overnight?

That cyano outbreak really skews the results of growth, since it smothers all the livestock. :sad:

 

[Isis]

@Marc wrote:

Yeah, the cyano was a problem for the last two months, which at this time we are attributing to organics in the water. The last two changes we "cleaned" the gravel to remove the detritus by stirring it up a bit, and vacuuming out everything, which was kind of dirty. Of course this leads to cloudy tanks. Unfortunately, there is nothing we can do about the residual dust on the gravel, so we try to let the tanks run as long as we can when adding the water, as well as not disturbing the gravel after the previous water has been completely removed. Within a few hours it settles and by the next day they are clear.

Last month was the first time we removed all the cyano, including what was on the glass. We were hoping that the cyano would die off after the water change, so when it didn't, we removed it off the glass by just rubbing it so we wouldn't disturb the coraline growth and forams. It has been a week since the last change, and it has made a significant difference. The tanks are starting to look more distinct in growth and problems. We also put the some of the corals on pedastals since they were beginning to be overrun by the gravel (flow was moving the granules), which has made the porites and montipora really happy, as well as the shroom, cladocora, zoas and sponge. The sinularia and gorgonian are doing fine without the elevation, so they stayed put.

As for the mixing, we are allowing to sit at least overnight, if not longer. We start making the water at least two weeks in advance, since making 100 gallons of RO/DI water takes a while, this also allows the pH to stabilize after the initial mixing. We do measure the salinity at initial mixing and the pH. Prior to placing the water in the tanks, we run parameter testing for the new water, then it is tested weekly until the change. So each batch gets tested 5 times. Also, we weigh out 35grams and mix with 1000mL of water, which should give a reading of exactly, 35ppt, which we are finding is not the case from brand to brand and sample to sample. Prior to putting the new water into each tank, we bring the salinity up to 35ppt, or at least within the range of 34-36ppt. We also adjust the alkalinity weekly.

Some of the interesting things that have happened are that the three of the tanks have all had deaths with the same corals, and even one fish death, which we aren't sure it is a fluke or related to the salt. There was even one montipora that changed color, we think it may going back to the original color, but it is strange. Heck, one of the salts has even managed to bleach a shroom, needless to say, it isn't happy. One of the tanks refuses to complete the nitrate cycle, and continually has high nitrates.

I am going to update the pictures soon when Eric emails them to me.

 

[melev]

I forgot to mention earlier that the cyano bloom could also be related to that very rich looking food. I'm sure you guys know what you're doing down there. I'm just talking to get my post count up. :lol:

 

[Isis]

@Marc wrote:

Rich looking food? The food is a combination of beta glucan (for the fish since we had one come down with a lymphocyte), dried cyclopeeze, Formula 2 and another green food. The tanks are fed 1/8 teaspoon every other day by automatic feeder.

 

[Rice Farms]

I was wondering if you have been following the thread concerning Kent salt on Reef Central-(Reef Chemistry--Randy Holmes-Farley)?

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=760882

Rice Farms

 

[blide]

I can't tell what's going on in all the posts. For example which salt is A,B,C,E and etc.

 

[TJay]

@Rice Farms wrote:

I know the premise of alk problems associated with Kent are ones that I see
I never had alk problems until using Kent
Now I cannot keep alk up even though I adjusted my magnesium

 

[Isis]

@blide wrote:

The tanks are labeled with A-K. This is a blind study so we can't be partial to the results or events that happen. I am the only one who knows the salts and their corresponding letters, but only at the time of assigning their letter. I normally forget what they are.

 

[ChuKronos]

Any news on how the study is going? Are there any needs that you have?
-Chuck

 

[fperkins]

See her post: http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=listarticles&secid=1

They need

Tropic Marin
Instant Ocean
Coralife
Kent
Red Sea

Kim - please provide a shipping address.

 

[Isis]

Sorry I missed this post, I have been busy with school lately. Please send all samples to me at:
Kim Lowe
4101 Nasa Pkwy
#306
Seabrook, TX 77586

Please double and trible bag the samples in order to preven contamination. The samples must be taken from a new unopened bag or container. We will need at least 3/4 of a gallon bag of salt. Each sample will need to be labeled with the brand, as well as date of purchase, size of container, location of purchase, as well as your name and contact info. We are also in need of Salifert Test Kits, (nitrite, nitrate, ammonia, phosphate, calcium and alkalinity). If you have any unexpired kits, we would greatly appreciate them.

If you have any questions, please email me at kim.price@marshreef.com , via PM here, or by phone at 281-658-2925.

Thanks for any support you can give us. We are running low on supplies and funds at this stage in the game.

 

[Isis]

Hello all,

Here is the list of salt brands and quantities we need of each.

• Tropic Marin - about 2-3
  Reef Crystals - about 3-4
  Coralife - about 4-5
  Kent - about 1-2
  HW Marinemix - 4-5
  Red Sea - about 2-3

 

[kwl1763]

Kim I'll send you out some HW and Reef Crystals later this week!

 

[fperkins]

Kim

I have ordered the following from Ocean Homes, Etc.

Test kits

1 Ammonia
2 Alkalinity
1 Calcium
1 Nitrate
1 Nitrite
1 Phosphate

50G Tropic Marin salt.

Will ship (direct to you) in a couple of days (Salifert kits seem to be on backorder a lot lately.

 

[Isis]

@Matt wrote:

I assume you are wanting a sample of the "good" Kent salt? I am not sure if you are aware or not but there are some bad batches floating around out there."]We are aware of this, but we do not want these samples. We want new bags of salt, which if you recently bought a bag and know it isn't from this "bad batch", then please send us a sample of that. We don't want an intential bad sample, otherwise that could compromise the study.

 

[Isis]

@kwl1763 wrote:

That is awesome!! Thanks so much and I will notify you when it is received.

 

[Isis]

@fperkins wrote:

That is great, I am so glad to get some more kits. We go thru these things like crazy since we test weekly. I will notify you when it is received.

 

[Isis]

@66deuce wrote:

There are interesting things happening for sure. I can't wait until we can present the preliminary data at MACNA. For those who would like to see pics of the progress, please see this thread...

http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=128732#128732

I will be posting pictures from this past weekend's monthly water change.

 

[fperkins]

@Isis wrote:

That is great, I am so glad to get some more kits. We go thru these things like crazy since we test weekly. I will notify you when it is received."]

Received the following from Monica:

Salt shipped today, test kits will be late in the week or early next week.