Question about selling and trading

[Jim]

I have a general question -- not address to anyone in particular.

I have had a few instances where I have purchased frags or equipment from club members only to end up on the short end of the stick. I have purchase a piece of equipment that was described as new or almost new only to find out the bulb is burned out (UV bulb). And yes, I know I should have made sure it worked first but the "nice" person met me half way (where there was not electrical socket).

Also, I have purchased frags of corals only to have them die almost immediately once I put them in my tank (when everything else in the tank is doing terrific).

What do the rest of you do when these things happen? I am feeling a bit burned by some of our members.

Maybe it is time to seriously consider a feedback system for the boards. Thoughts?

 

[DaveJ]

@theturk wrote:

Bring it up to them and see what they say... at this point in time there really isn't much more you can do than that. Most people will try to work with you to some degree.

Frags are tough... people are not businesses so you can't expect them to replace things that were given to you healthy if they do not make it. Most businesses have some sort of dead policy, but people don't. If they do replace them, great.. I have before, but its not one of those things you can expect. At least in my opinion.... its just one of those things you have to accept getting living things from other people. Sometimes they just die. Once you have made your inspection at delivery, you take on responsibility for its survival.

I would like to see a feedback system of some sort. It won't actually help financially or if someone gets burned, but it will help ID those who have a history of being stand-up about things and offering quality stuff. It will also point out those who have a pattern of the opposite.


Ultimately though, its the buyers beware thing...

 

[ReefGod]

I trim a lot of my corals therefore I sell a lot of frags, some poeple really insist to come over and pick out which frags they want on the spot, I had a guy come over and spend half a day outside my house uninvited and without notice, but I never sell a frag unless it's been mounted and healed for at least a day, and I would always replace any RTN frags, unless I don't have anymore. There are some unpleasant people on the board and in time you learn who they are and know who to stay away from.

A feedback system would not work because you never hear from most satisfied costumers, but there's always going to be that one hard to please individual that will leave a negative feeback and that's the only thing that will count.

 

[hegi]

when I sell frags I always tell people to let me know if it doesn't make it given everything else in their tank is doing fine. IMO a seller should replace a frag if it dies for no reason.

 

[ReefGod]

That's true in most cases, I had a guy come pick up over 10 frags of fragile sps, and on the way out he asked me "my tank has been setup for two weeks, do you think they're going to be fine?" Would you replace the 10 frags knowing that his tank is two weeks old? Or "say give me my frags back" and get stuck with a rack full of frags?

Sometimes you may see a reason where others don't and that makes you a bad seller in their mind, so there's always two sides to every story.

 

[Jim]

The feedback (on buyers and sellers) works very well on Ebay - why not here? If I have had a positive experience, I always am very happy to complete a simply "happy buyer" form.

I agree that the seller can never know what the person's system is like. In my case, my system has been running for over a year and corals and fish are growing great. When I pickup a new coral frag, I expect it to thrive. When, within a day or two, it bleaches out and dies, it makes me think the frag was not healthy. If it dies several days or weeks later, then that was something I did.

Rating systems would encourage people to be more honest in their dealing with others (no, it will not fix everything). I would much prefer to pay a bit more for healthy frags then get burned.

 

[BigJay]

@Anton M wrote:

Does that person have any idea how creepy that was? :lol:

 

[masharp1126]

I agree with Anton. I think the feedback would come primarily from dissatisfied customers. When everything goes right, most people don't think about it, but look out if something goes bad.

I also would replace something that died, if I could. While there are a lot of people on the board that do have the systems in place and knowledge to house the more delicate corals, there are a lot that do not. If you don't personally know them, then you don't know which category they fall in.

Regarding my own purchases, I know going in that there is no guarantee. The reason I buy occasional frags from members is because they are cheaper and/or something I can't get from the LFS. With that being said, I don't expect someone to replace something for me if it dies, and have never asked anyone to do so.

 

[DaveJ]

@BigJay wrote:

Does that person have any idea how creepy that was? :lol:"]

I didn't think he saw me... j/k

 

[hitillidie]

Like stated above, every system is different. SPS can be fragile, I don't look for guarantee when I buy frags. But I make sure I do my homework. Buying from guys who have similar set-up as for as parameters and lighting goes. I would think a coral thriving under T-5 needs an adjustment period moving to 250w MH, so I wouldn't put that coral in the top of my tank right away. You find people who don't take things like that into consideration and coral die and blame it on the seller.

When it comes to fish though, it’s a little different. Fish can adjust slowly to unfavorable conditions. You may have a few fish in your tank that look to be doing great. Make you think your tank is healthy. When you place another fish into that system, the fish freakin dies in two days. Your thinking it's a bad fish.

I’ve had pretty good luck with people on the board and come to the belief that people who sale frags have tanks with system conditions good enough for them to grow. My system, I consider it to be pretty good and therefore shouldn’t be any problem.

 

[hegi]

IMO you should do your best to make sure the person buying a frag from you has an appropriate system and enough experience to keep it. There have been several times that I refused to sell a frag to someone because I didn't feel like their system was mature enough and they didn't have enough knowledge. IMO that is one luxury we as hobbiest have selling to other hobbiest. Yes, you may want to sell that frag but your livelyhood doesn't depend on selling corals. I'm not saying it's right for fish stores to sell corals to someone without the tank requirements or knowledge to keep them, but in our case it is certainly our responsibility to make sure buyers can properly care for the frags they buy.

 

[Firewolf4]

Another key to selling or trading Frags is knowing the parameters of the tank the buyer wants to put it in. I've purchased several frags over the past year and all but one are doing great. the one that died was a precursor to a tank problem of mine. So when selling Frags, find out how close their parameters are to yours. Like the instance mentioned above where the tank was up for 2 weeks, Yes, I would've refused to sell them but would've given them the chance to get in on frags I would offer after their tank has been established for a while. I also like the idea behind the Co-op in that they have requirements/recommendations for corals. this may prevent someone just new to the hobby seeing this REALLY COOL coral and killing it in weekend. this would also help in not allowing a negative image of reefkeeping and promote a Positive view of education.

 

[dvups1]

I think it could be a good thing only on dry goods as long as both people get to tell their side of the story.

As far as livestock though, I don't think that anyone should be obligated to refund or exchange anything. I don't even think that a LFS should. It all boils down to real experience and know-how.

I see people posts all the time wanting to know what is wrong with their tank. Most of the time they say something like "tank parameters are great" or "water quailty fine". I have been in this hobby for a while now and there are only a handful of home reefs out there that I have seen that fall into the 'perfect" catagory. There is no way to know if certain corals will make it or not. There are simply too many varialbles on both sides of the equation. I don't thnk that "feedback" or "rating system" would help anyone when it come to live goods.

You are only as good as what you expose yourself to. I think that is why the Tank Tour program that this club has is so important. People can see and guage their systems health against others and work towards a better reef.

 

[Pneumatic]

I agree with the above statement about having requirements/recommendations for corals.

I am new to the hobby. Before I even set up the tank I did a massive amount of research and was a little taken back by how many parameters need to be kept in line to run a successful reef tank. It's nothing like fresh water and I think that's where people go astray. They may have had a fresh water tank where things are more forgiving and think that the only difference between that and a reef tank is the salt.

This forum is one where new people naturally gather so it is important for the experienced members to guide them. If I, as a new member of the hobby, was told by an experienced member that I couldn't have a frag because my tank wasn't established enough I would thank them profusely. It would save me from the heartache of watching it whither away in my tank.

The things I would like to see on frags are:

Light requirements
Feeding requirements
Tank maturity requirement
Compatibility/aggressiveness concerns

I research things before buying but many people don't, so easy access to this information might avoid some issues. It wouldn't necessarily need to be per frag but maybe a sticky at the top of the COOP section or the For Sale section. People selling frags could link to it and require people read it before purchasing or hosting a frag.

As for purchasing things on the forums... I have bought a couple of things from members and have had a good experience. Both have been hardware (no livestock) so I can't speak to the hardiness of things being sold but I haven't had any problems with members yet.

I would be one that would leave positive feedback and am in favor of a rating system as long as it's a two way street. People should be able to rate sellers and sellers should be able to rate buyers. If someone makes an uninformed decision and buys a coral that is not compatible with their tank it shouldn't reflect on the seller so it would be nice if there were some kind of system to figure that out before negative feedback could be left for a frag.

 

[Zojro]

@Anton M wrote:

I had a similar scenario myself. I sold 5 fish to someone. 1 week later I ran into him at the lfs and he was angry that all of the fish were smothered in ick and lethargic. I explained that those fish had been happy in my care for approx. 2 years and asked about his tank. He told me he had set it up the NIGHT before he came over. The lfs tested his water when I was there and ammonia was over 10! But apparently that was no reason for the fish to become ill and I was the evil seller.