Phosphates will not go down PLEASE HELP!!!

P

pwee_1

Alright so I have 75g w/ 20g sump refugium and skimmer. parameters as follows

PH-8.2 Alkalinity-11 Nitrite-0 Salinity- 1.022 Phosphate- 1ppm

So my phosphates have been up around two and three for about a month now maybe month and half. I realized the initial problem was that my seabae anem had died and couldn't find it. so about two weeks later after dosing with phosgaurd "Seachem" and water change and no change in high phosphate. i went digging. Found the dead anem by this point looked like an oyster w/ (no shell of coarse) removed it and continued dosing phosguard. Went through entire 2L bottle which treats over 600 gallons and replacing every 4-6 days sometimes leaving old one in little longer with the new. Did a 15g water change on 7/24 then 20g 1 week later then 15g 2 weeks later then 20g 1 week later. And now I am here asking for advice Please Help. I have about 100lbs LR 40Lbs of LS and am going to and more sand will this help? Oh and the phosgaurd is being placed in the refugium as the recommended amount states. I feed every other day but am now feeding evey three days consisting of one silverside for my juvenile 9in banded shark. 3-4 small krill for snowflake ell 2ft. Also occasionaly small amount of mysis for yellow tang. And marine algae for yellow tang maybe daily sometimes every other.

another question do any you all dry out your old phosgaurd and reuse a 2nd time. Will it still work. Bottle states "may be removed dried and returned to service until exhausted" quote. When is exhausted?

Thank you for your help and I very much appreciate your time!
 
Couple of things...

Just to clarify, a dying nem will not push your PO4 up. It will bump your nitrates, nitrites and ammonia however.

PO4 is for the most part, a product of the water you use to do changes etc. Are you using RO/DI?? If not, you should.

PO4 can also be introduced as part of your foods. The amount of food that you posted should not have any significant impact on PO4 as they are pretty small quantities and not processed foods, though the algae for the tang may be depending on which brand and type you use. If you are using live from your refuge, that is putting the PO4 it takes up back into the system.

Trim your algae in the refuge and toss it out, don't put it back into the system. That is how you remove Nitrates and PO4 from the system.

Making the bed into a DSB will help, but you have to have sufficient depth of the bed, 5+ inches is what I recommend. However, for it to be truly effective you need enough surface area too.

PO4 can also leech out of the LR if its accumulated enough of it.

I would suggest that you get a really good PO4 kit as well, one that is easy to read and accurate enough. Not all of them are that easy to read and it could be higher than you think or lower.

GFO would be an alternative. As is Blue Life Phosphate control.

I don't use Phosguard, so I will defer to others who have on its effectiveness and uses.
 
I do water changes with RO from LFS and I have tested it for phosphates and it has been 0. Also I do not feed from my ref algae and do not have that much of it it has only been set for about 2 1/2 months or so. The algae i use is marine nutrition.
 
@pwee_1 wrote:
I do water changes with RO from LFS and I have tested it for phosphates and it has been 0. Also I do not feed from my ref algae and do not have that much of it it has only been set for about 2 1/2 months or so. The algae i use is marine nutrition. said:
What test kit are you using?
Click to expand...
 
PO4 can also leech out of the LR if its accumulated enough of it. said:
Dave, can you elaborate on this? Is this from food and detritus accumulating on the live rock or something else? How does one determine if this is a cause?
Click to expand...
 
@CarolynM wrote:
[quote="PO4 can also leech out of the LR if its accumulated enough of it. said:
Dave, can you elaborate on this? Is this from food and detritus accumulating on the live rock or something else? How does one determine if this is a cause?"]

LR will absorb many things, PO4 is one of them. You see it mostly in older LR or LR that's passed from system to system as well as some of the man made rock. Where it comes from can be any number of places, from food or the water or the materials used to produce the rock itself. Once it settles into the LR it will leech out slowly. In a healthy system or one with a good export mechanism setup, its not a problem but in a new system or one that is at the edge of its export capability it could tip the balance.

In these cases, the use of a PO4 remover, like GFO etc over time can help but it can take a long time for it to completely be removed since it has to get into the water before the GFO can pull it out.

How do you determine if thats your problem? That's a good question and one that I don't have a firm answer for other than elimination of other sources. PO4 just does not appear in your system, it comes from stuff you put into it. If you eliminate food, your water source and the like LR would very well be the cause since PO4 accumulates slowly into it. Same with DSB's that have gone old or sour, though the results of that PO4 would be the least of your worries. A fully functional DSB will process the PO4 it pulls in, but one that is questionable or not fully operational will just accumulate it.
Click to expand...
 
When I was having slight issues with phosphates I added a phosban reactor. I also happened to upgrade skimmers at the same time. One or a combo of both knocked out the phosphates.
 
The test kit I am using is API, and what you said about the type of LR. I bought all of mine from Aquatic Design and this is my first tank and has been up for six and half months. I have lost countless numbers of things. So maybe it being a new system the rocks are possible doing what you mentioned. Any idea how long it may take to "leech" all the P04 out??

Also I had never heard anyone mention that a sand bed could go bad..yet I am still a "nubie" but how would you know this? Are there certain signs to look for?

Thanks alot on your responses you have been very informative. Here's a pic of Tank and Sump...

That bag in the sump is chemi-pure.
 
Err.. hrmm.

Well.. in order..

1) ditch the seaclown skimmer and get a better skimmer
2) triple the amount of live rock
3) ditch the bio-balls slowly once the live rock brings the nitrates down
4) don't add anything else for at least a couple of months.
 
why don't you think the skimmer is ok. LFS employees have said that it is ok for my setup? I have heard ditch the bio balls before and I don't understand quit why as well. I have never had problems with my nitrates and I've heard that having them will raise Nitrates. All setups that I have personally seen still have them.... Thanks for your feedback always helps
 
Find the source of your phosphates if possible.
Test your top off water.
Test your water change water.
If both are zero - get a bettter skimmer.
PO4 Minus is a great product for removing phosphate.
I use Rowaphos with a phosban reactor - cheaper and easier.
Rinse off your frozen food prior to feeding.
Nice rock work! Not sure you need more liverock or to remove the submerged bio- balls. If your nitrates are at an acceptable level - no need for more liverock. Too much live rock will result in high nitrates.
 
If you're going to stay with a fowlr tank, I don't see a problem with the po4. If you're going to go to a full blown reef, then let's do something about getting rid of the bioballs and the skimmer should be rated for a larger number of gallons than your tank because of lack of other filtration methods and 'dirty' fish.
 
@pwee_1 wrote:
why don't you think the skimmer is ok. LFS employees have said that it is ok for my setup? I have heard ditch the bio balls before and I don't understand quit why as well. I have never had problems with my nitrates and I've heard that having them will raise Nitrates. All setups that I have personally seen still have them.... Thanks for your feedback always helps said:
That skimmer really is junk.. not enough contact time, nor volume enough for a tank your size. There are mods that some people do to increase the performance, but usually as a stopgap measure while saving up for a better model.

You mention in the first post that you test nitrites, but you don't mention nitrate levels. Was that a typo, or are you testing nitrates?

As to why bioballs are bad- they provide a lot of surface area for the kinds of bacteria that convert waste and uneaten food from ammonia to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate. They don't allow the processing of nitrate back to nitrogen gas, which is harmless. More live rock and adding sand will allow for NNR (natural nitrate reduction) to occur in both areas.

If you're set on keeping an anemone, you need to treat it like a reef tank, not a FOWLR. Is that a sun coral in the middle? If so, you need to target feed it as well- brine or mysis will work fine.

(I also resized your pictures so that they're not taking up the whole screen.)
Click to expand...
 
Hey thanks for the comp steelcaveman on the LR.. and that is a sun coral I have about 4 heads of frogspawn to the left but they weren't out when I took pic the sun coral is about 4 months old now it was one of the first things I put in and I do target feed it's doing quit well actually.

In the begging I was planning on doing FOWLR but then started to become a hobbyist and learn about all the pretty and amazing corals so I was kinda adding some easy beginer pieces like Daisy Alvelapora, frogspawn, and GSP. but the GSP didn't make it through the P04 raise and my fater put a power head that was pounding on it for couple days till I had noticed what he had done which basically killed it.

Sounds like I need to save up for better skimmer than. I'm not one to have much to spend at the time but any suggestions on a certain model when I get the $$.

Oh and Ashlar thanks for the resize I won't do that again was just in hurry earlier and you have any links to some threads where I may be able to obtain some of those methods on modifying my skimmer for now?? Almost forgot about the Nitrites question....not a type O if have only Nitrite test kit.

You have all been a great source of Information thank you very much DFWMAS is awesome and I have really been wanting to make a meeting here soon.
 
you said you use Rowaphos with a phosban reactor.. I had no knowledge of the reactor till just saw a "two little fishies" one on marine depot not very expansive. So do you always keep some of the rowaphos in it. if so how long will it typically last? Or do you just add some when your PO4 seems to be rising?
 
Rowaphos - 24/7 - how long it lasts depends on the amount of phosphate. It get hard when it runs out - You'll know.
You really need to test nitrate.
Your LFS will likely test all major parameters for free.
Also take some top off water & test it for Phosphate and nitrate.
 
Fish can handle a higher level of nitrate than most corals, so reducing nitrates should be a goal if you're leaning toward corals or anemones. A better skimmer will help remove waste before it can produce nitrates, and the live rock / sand will help (given more LR/LS than you currently have.)

I bet when you get nitrates tested they'll be rather high. You may end up having to do a few large water changes to get them down fairly quickly.
 
Are you feeding any flake foods? A lot of them are loaded with po4. In addition how often are you feeding. My tank which has a lot more fish than yours, gets fed every other day. The fish do not starve, contrary to some popular held belief and my PO4 is not detectable on the kit that you are using.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top