Live sand substrate - What is the best setup?

[I would like to replace my crushed coral with live sand. How much should I get, where should I get it? Cost is not an issue.

Tank is 30"wx12"d]
 
[In addition this weekend would be the most convenient time to make this transition (before next weekends meet and frag seminar). So local is preferred.]
 
[i wouldnt create a DSB,,,,, its a timebomb.... I have had them in the past... if you are going to use a sand bed,, dont use more than a inch and a half...

Is this for the main display or a refugium?
One thing people need to realize is that after about a year with the DSB in place the PH in "low zones" has fallen frequently enough to create solid plates in the tank.Ever helped anyone with a juabert tear a tank down? the last 75 I had created a plate of solid aragonite that weighed 90lbs......
With this happening you will create pockets of sulfide(deadspace)and these are very toxic. If you ever read anything on people who stir up sand beds and the nightmares that happen with them.... this is what I am refering to......

Just because you can see pods and worms on the edges of your tanks with these DSB's doesnt mean they are through your entire refugium or tank's bed.

Maybe more info than you wanted to read... but this is my view on sand.


Nathan]
 
[Well, my fears are the CC I have is a bit deep as well (2-3" front to back) and the possibility of toxins over time is a threat, and a bit on my mind as I start adding long term inhabitants. THis is my display. I don't have a refugium... yet.

Should I consider;

A. Removing as much CC to get a thin layer (1"-1.5")
B. Remove CC, and replace with thin layer of LS (1"-1.5")

A. is less time consuming, and less stress on existing inhabitants.
B. is more time consuming, and ....????

I also had an interest on placing the Brain coral I have on the sand, instead of on a rock.]



Edited By Brack on 1097112718
 
@Brack wrote:
[Well said:
[A: is too drastic on a tank to do all at once unless you wanna do a Big Arse Water change and another a week around the corner....

I would try removing about a inch of your crushed coral.
Is the skimmer you have overrated for this tank?

How is your ALK and CA levels? are they staying pretty level? has your CC started solidifying yet?]
 
[
I would try removing about a inch of your crushed coral. Is the skimmer you have overrated for this tank? said:
Skimmer is a Red Sea Berlin Airlift 60 (Waiting for laughter to stop). However with a good pump, which I have, it will clear a good 1" if skimate a day. Not bad for old school design. :) However, I am considering purchasing a AquaC Remora™ to rid my tank of so many mocro bubbles and increase the efficency.

How is your ALK and CA levels? are they staying pretty level? has your CC started solidifying yet? said:
ALK: 10-11 KH
CA: 420-430

See;

http://www.dfwmas.org....;t=5148

For more information than you would want to read.

:D]
 
[Here's just a little read by Ronald Shimek, Ph. D. The entire article is here:
http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

"Problems:

More imagined than real problems bedevil keepers of sand beds. The imagined problems are proposed by people who are ignorant of the sand bed dynamics. Among these imaginary problems are accumulations of hydrogen sulfide and detritus, and the need for sifting. Hydrogen sulfide will indeed be formed in the lowermost layers of a deep sand bed. It will NOT migrate up through the sediments to poison a tank. Hydrogen sulfide is an amazingly toxic gas, but that toxicity is exceeded by its pungent rotten-egg odor. The gas will have an exceptionally strong odor, and will seem overwhelming at levels well BELOW toxic amounts. If you can smell this stuff without it literally taking your breath away, it won't be at a harmful concentration. There is no real evidence to indicate that it may reach toxic levels in a deep sand bed.

Detritus build up in the sediment is another non-problem. If the sediment fauna is thriving, there will be a slight build up of fine detritus while the rest will be processed by the infauna. The final imaginary problem, the presumed need for sifting in a healthy sand bed, simply does not exist. Small organism movements "sift" the sand sufficiently. Any other sifting of a healthy bed will cause serious harm.

Sand beds recycle materials and export many of the excess nutrients in an aquarium. Some excess nutrients are mobilized by becoming soluble through metabolic processes and need to be exported either as harvestable macroalgae or animals, grown in the main tank or a sump.

The only real problem with a sand bed is the reduction in diversity as the bed ages. This is caused by extinction and replacement problems because the volume of our beds is simply too small for some species to generate self-sustaining populations. This is remedied, by purchasing a detritivore or recharge kit or two every year or so to give a boost to the fauna.

Conclusion:

The installation of a live sand bed is easy, straight-forward, and inexpensive relative to almost all other aquarium purchases. Once established, such a bed will contribute much to the success of a reef tank by providing a biological filter with sufficient capacity to for most tanks. Additionally it will provide food for many of the suspension feeding animals such as small polyped stony corals. And, it will do this all with a minimum of care and expense."

As with just about anything in reef keeping, what works in one tank is not guarenteed to work in another. There are many ways to keep a successful reef tank so choosing your own method is up to you.]
 
[Nice article. However, to me, it sounds like somebody writing about other's experience, rather than his own. Popular with academics...
What makes more of an impact to me is '75 gal tank...90 lb block of aragonite...imbedded sulfur...' is that is the stuff of someone who has lived it - adding to that to reading in the last 6 months or so of members who have stirred/disturbed their DSBs with near catastrophic and catastrophic results, I am firmly convinced that those 'imaginary fears' are pretty danged, if not goldanged, real.

So with all due respects to the good Dr. Shimek, I will go with the feedback from folks that I know...

So what did you do with the 90 lb block of aragonite?]
 
@cpalmist wrote:
[- adding to that to reading in the last 6 months or so of members who have stirred/disturbed their DSBs with near catastrophic and catastrophic results said:
[
Detritus build up in the sediment is another non-problem. If the sediment fauna is thriving said:
I do not see where he does not say that if you disturb the sandbed you are not going to get catastrophic results. He is saying that the damage is not related to accumulations of hydrogen sulfide and detritus. I think he is right, its a release of organics that are trapped in the sandbed when you disturb it too deeply. I also believe that if you set up a proper sandbed and on a regular basis reintroduced a detritivore or recharge kit as he says to do, it would work as well as he says it does. The problem is usually with overstocking, overfeeding and not keeping up with the maintenance of the sandbed. Thats exactly why I went with a bare bottom tank, I feel it is easier to keep clean than to keep up with the sandbed over any length of time.]
 
[Oh, I agree! I'm doing a DSB myself, a 'Decorative Sand Bed', according to Mitch, it being only about 1/2 - 1" deep...which is good whether you prefer "shaken, not stirred" or ...]
 
[Im not a DSB fan either and went with a SSB, shallow/deco bed in my newer tank. I too had trouble w a DSB last year and would never go back to one. Dr. Shimek's tank crashed as well due to his sandbed, so even though his theory is good it simply isnt as simple as it should be IMO.

I would just swap out your cc for new sand. If you buy live stuff from somewhere it could cause a small cycle, and for that reason I would simply use good dry sand. There should be plenty of life in your LR to establish the new sand over the next couple of months. Im pretty sure tranquil scape sells good dry aragonite, many of the other LFS probably carry it as well. Be sure to rinse it well in a bucket before it goes in the tank.

When its time for the swap, have lots of extra SW made up. Move all your LR and critters to buckets and tubs using as much tank water as you can. Then you can scoop out the cc, add the sand. Then add a bit of fresh SW and start moving your rock back in. Get it all situated the way you like and use as much tank water as you can to fill it back up.
It will be a tedious afternoon, but shouldnt be too bad overall.]
 
[Well said, Amanda. Going the SSB/Deco Sand Bed just removes that 'Deteriorating Sand Bed' factor in trouble-shooting tank problems...like there aren't enough factors running already...]
 
[I know that people have shared horror stories over their DSBs, but two times last year a powerhead fell off the glass and move 25% of my sand to the other end of the tank. Nothing happened to the livestock nor the water parms.]
 
[I like the DSB theory but do not have one in my main tank due to the problems many have had.

I do however, know many people who had had them set up for years on end with no problems. I also know people who have had them crash and kill the tank so it is a huge debate that I don't know will ever be resolved in the near future.

I think not disturbing it and keeping it diverse is the key. If I ever move and set up a really big tank I will have a huge refugium with a DSB but go with a 1/2 inch crushed coral bed in the display. I just can't get used to the bare bottom look.]
 
[I'm kinda wondering if the DSB (deep sand bed) theory got started by those that weren't keeping live rock, but those dead corals and those plastic bubbling treasure chests and hard-hat diver decorations...

Almost a hangover from fresh water fish keeping as you do want a deep gravel/sand bed for the mulm processing - the deeper the bed the longer between breaking down the tank for cleaning...especially if doing undergravel filtration so the lore goes...

However, with live rock, you're already doing the function of a deep sand bed, providing large surface area with bacterial populations to break down organics and filter feeders to recycle the bacterial populations, inorganics and organics as well

So as those who prefer a NSB (No Sand Bed) are proving, the live rock do that recycling/processing job very nicely. The SSB folk want some substrate but only enough to give cover to pods, bristleworms, and the like, and the DSB folks like that slice of life look in their tanks...

So all of the sand bed types do work, it just appears that if you have live rock, having a DSB is an esthetic choice more than a functional choice...]
 
[Marc,

What was the age and depth of your sand bed when this occurred?

I am open to any SB type. The main guiding rule is long term stability (i.e. 2+ years before needing a complete rebuild. At that time I should be moving to a larger :devil2: tank.)

My current tank is the width 30" & depth 12" of a 29, with about 4" more height 22".]



Edited By Brack on 1097263349
 
[Through research and thorough contemplation, I have come to the following (personal) conclusion.

I will do a shallow sand bed approximately 1-1.5” in depth of aragonite.

Reasons for choosing a SSB;

• Can be (more) easily siphoned out and replaced on a yearly/needed basis.
• Keeping a SSB, especially in a small reef aquarium, eliminates the risk of a large confined space that can become anoxic. If there IS a possibility of crash, eliminate the possibility.
• The de-nitrifying ability of the live rock is currently suitable at lowing nitrate to an unreadable level. The need for further de-nitrification in a sand bed is unnecessary.

Wish me luck. (Gulp.. :sniffle:) I will photograph the whole process, and begin first thing tomorrow morning.

Thanks for ALL the terrific input and discussion. :beerchug:]
 
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