filtration, sump, newbies, oh my!

R

rocklymber

Hey guys-
You've all helped so much that I thought I'd push my luck and ask another one!
Here's what happened: I bought a 20 gallon saltwater tank from a transfering co-worker a few weeks ago. It's an Eclipse. I can hear the gasps now. It has two holes drilled in the back with an overflow in each. The overflow tubes led down to a small chamber with bioballs, into a ten gallon sump. the water was then pumped back up to the tank. Concurrent to this, the eclipse filtration is running. With the tank (sump , etc), I got a hunk of live rock, a percula clown and the substrate. He also threw in some extras; nets, salt, etc. It was a pretty good deal for $50, I thought. Then of course I got addicted and started adding things.
We added some live rock, (we're up to about 20 pounds now, which I think is 'acceptable'?) a royal gramma, a 6 line wrasse, some corals, a few snails, some blue leg hermits, a pom pom crab (what a cool little critter!) and I think that's it.
THEN (to make a long story even longer) we knew we needed more light, so we searched for a way to add more. We found a fixture that fits, and we rigged up a unique um...I don't know how to say it. Anyway, the light is there, and it's a better one than the eclipse light.
Next (anyone still reading?) we decided to turn the sump into a refugium. My boyfriend read and read and read on these things, and built one that I think is superb. It's up and going, and has been for almost three weeks. the water flows from the overflows into a first chamber with bioballs and the heater and then to a chamber where the protein skimmer, (it was free) a berlin airlift lives. then it goes into the refugium, where we have miracle mud in it and also some macro algae. From there it goes to the return chamber and gets pumped back to the tank.
Anyway, if anyone has hung in there with me, here are my questions. The tank has been stable. We do small water changes very frequently because our nitrates were high. (Another reason for adding the 'fuge.) When can we stop running the eclipse filter and rely solely on the refugium? How do we know it's working? Second, where is all the water going? We have to top off almost daily. The reason we want to get rid of the eclipse hood entirely, is because we got a powerhead that we want to add for water movement, but with that stupid hood, we can't. It would just be easier all around for maintenance if we could get rid of it. Plus it would make my boyfriend stop cussing when we have to do anything inside the tank. :shock:
I'm really sorry for the extremely long post, I just wanted to make sure to include all pertinent information!
 
well weve got you set on a cleanup crew :) .. hows the pom pom crab btw?

anyways you can switch over to the fuge once all your levels are ok :) .. then rip off that hood and let your system run in its goodness :)

if that makes any sence .. howd the joes juice work for you guys?
 
Yeah, the clean up crew is working out great. We just added a little at a time until things started to look good. The pom pom crab is doing very well. Of course, we didn't see her for a while after we added her (her name is Buffy) but she's been out a little over the last couple of days. She still has her pom poms and seems to be doing great!
The joe's juice...still haven't added it yet. Like I said, getting into the tank is a pain in the you-know-what, and so many people feel that it's just a 'quick fix' we weren't sure if we were going to use it.
Thanks for the advice on the 'fuge. I'll test levels today and see where we are. We're so sick of that hood!
 
Nitrates are caused by bioballs (wet/dry environment), filter pads, sponges, socks, and biowheels. http://www.melevsreef.com/reducing_nitrates.html

Once you've got those removed, you can change larger amounts of water to bring nitrates down quickly and effectively.

The safest method of removing bioballs is 25% each week. Water changes remove nitrates.

The rest sounds good. What sized heater are you using now? We are in the colder months.
 
So, by using the bioballs, and the eclipse filter with the biowheel, I'm actually putting nitrates into my water? That seems counterproductive. why do I see them in use all the time?
Should I remove the eclipse hood with the pad and biowheel filter, then start removing the bioballs a little at a time? Over what amount of time should I do this? Are we talking hours or days here?
If I remove the eclipse hood and the bio balls, essentially what I will have is water flowing from the tank to the sump/fuge and back to the tank again. Is that enough? I will have the powerhead in the tank too.
I am thinking that by getting rid of my 'nitrate traps' I might bring the nitrates down to a manageable level. Should be able to get them perfect with water changes after all that stuff is gone, right?
Sorry about all the questions, I just get really attached to my critters, and don't want to lose any of them due to stupidity. :roll:
 
Bioballs, biowheels and the like are extremely efficient at converting ammonia->nitrite->nitrate...

Sorry to patronize, but I'll give ya' my standard spiel, although I'm sure Marc has a link he could just cut and paste with the same info...

Fish waste, decaying matter, etc, become ammonia. The bacteria that convert the ammonia into nitrite and the nitrite into nitrate are aerobic, they thrive in an oxygen rich environment.

The bacteria that convert nitrate to nitrogen gas are anaerobic, they require an oxygen-POOR enrivonment to live, thrive, and do their thing.

The biowheels/bioballs provide an oxygen rich environment, and allow the conversion to nitrate to happen TOO efficiently, not providing time or a location for the nitrate->nitrogen gas bacteria to catch up.

The reason you see bio(wheels|balls) used to often is that they ARE very good at what they do. For people who keep fish-only tanks, these are excellent filtration solutions. However, for invert-rich tanks, they're a poor solution for this very nitrate problem.

No matter what you do, do NOT remove all your current filtration all at once! Once you've got enough live rock/refuguim/whatever you're gonna use in place, SLOWLY remove your bioballs. I'm not sure how you'd slowly remove a biowheel, maybe someone else will have a good solution to that one...

Hope that rant made sense and was at least somewhat helpful, sorry if it was kinda incoherent, I've got a 3 year old stuck to my leg and crying because her computer isn't working and she wants to play a Dora game...
 
Yeah, makes sense. It's now becoming clear to me.
I want to get rid of the eclipse hood though, so if anyone has any suggestions for how to 'wean' my tank off that filter, please let me know!
Oh, and a three year old and his/her dora should never be separated for long!
 
Once you have the sump and refugium in place, and a decent protein skimmer working well, you can pull off the nitrate-makers in your system.

Have you seen my current sump? Nothing filters the water other than the skimmer and the refugium. This will be huge, but the process is the same for smaller tanks. http://www.melevsreef.com/280g/280g_sump.html
 
I'm not super experienced on sump setups but I do have a 30 gallon Eclipse set-up. From the get go I took out the eclipse filter pads and just used the built in filtration for circulation.

Do you have anything in the eclipse filter compartment (ie filter pads, bio balls etc?). If not I bet you could do away with the filter straight away. If you're worried, throw the filter pad in the sump and run the water through it.

Carolyn
 
The existing system is the eclipse filtration as it was originally (I assume) with the filter pad and the biowheel. Also, it flows down through the overflows into the first compartment where there are bioballs, into the second compartment where there will be a protein skimmer if we can find some suction pads to hold it in place, into the third compartment where the refugium is, into the fourth compartment where the return pump is. I want to get rid of the eclipse hood, but without it, all I have is the refugium and the skimmer. Once we remove the hood, we can add the powerhead to move the water. Do we need anything else for filtration? In what order should I remove things? maybe remove the hood and use the filter pad in the sump, then remove the bioballs a few at a time? That would mean the biowheel goes first, then the balls, then last, the pad. But the pad is covered in some pretty nasty gunk, so it might blow it up into my tank and that would be icky too, unless I put it in the first chamber with the bioballs and then it would likely be 'filtered' out in the fuge?
:?:
 
if the pad is covered in icky stuff, i would take it out now. then slowly start removing the bio balls. When you wing it off of those then you can lose the hood. Just make sure you have a good flow plent of LR and a Skimmer. As long as you are not over feeding with your bio load you should be ok.
 
So, to be sure I'm clear:
After getting the skimmer up and running;
first take out the filter pad from the eclipse filter
second remove bioballs a little at a time
third remove hood and biowheel

Is this the general consensus?

Thanks guys for your help! I'm sure Nemo, Greta and the new guy all appreciate it too!
 
Not to muddy the issue, but my personal recommendation, if you currently have a biowheel AND bioballs, would be:

Once you've got the "regular reef filtration" up and running (Liverock and skimmer at a minimum. And by liverock, I mean a minimum of 1 pound per gallon of water, and by up and running, I mean it's been there and running for at least a few weeks) I'd remove the biowheel first, that way the bioballs can absorb any shock to the system easier with the removal of a large piece of your current filtration all at once.

Then, after another week or so, I'd start removing the bioballs just a few at a time...

That's just what I'd recommend...
 
Pull out the pads now, and rinse them out well. If you want to put them back in after they've been rinsed, that is fine. Just shake them out well to remove the tap water as much as possible.

Later, you'll run it padless. But at the moment they are loaded up with detritus and rotting food and that is adding to the nitrate level.
 
Not to muddy the waters ... but would it not make more sense to put the skimmer after the fuge.

By putting the skimmer in front of the fuge you are going to skim out all the stuff the fuge (macro algae) needs to thrive.

Oh and for your steps:

Pull the pads now.
Get the skimmer/fuge setup and running
Pull the wheel
SLOWLY! remove the bio balls - If you pull them to quickly you will cycle the tank.
Remove other Eclipse hodd stuff.

The process should be over weeks, not days.
 
Ok *sigh*
So here's my plan; someone please tell me if you see any major flaws in it!
I checked water two days ago and it was all fine.
Today I will remove the pad from the eclipse filter completely. I will also get the skimmer installed. The 'fuge and sump are already in place and running; have been for about 3 weeks.
I will do regular water checks to make sure everything stays steady.
Assuming everything stays at acceptable levels, I will remove the hood with the bio wheel in about 2 weeks. At that point I will install the powerhead.
Then, I will continue to do water tests as usual. If everything holds steady, I will begin to remove the bio balls. Mind you, there aren't very many; just about 20 or 30. I will remove them a few at a time over a period of say four weeks.
Throughout the process, I will continue to do water changes as usual (about 2-3 gallons twice a week).
So, that's my plan, and I'm stickin to it...unless anyone sees anything awful in it...
:shock:
 
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