Brown Cyano/Diatoms?

[GraviT]

After a couple weeks of supplimental coral feeding, I noticed a bit of cyano popping up here and there. I promptly stopped the extra feeding in hopes of getting it under control before it grew out of hand. Well, then the brown stuff started kicking in. Both NO3 and PO4 are undetectable but this crud keeps on growing. It isn't forming a slime mat like cyano does, but instead is kinda loose and flows in the current. :? I'm very tempted to do a chemi-clean treatment as it's an eyesore, but I'm not real sure that it will effect this stuff. Is it cyano, diatoms or some other plague? Help!

 

[texasschott]

im havent been at reefing long but doesnt this stuff happen too, because of not enough flow?

 

[pineappleface]

Maybe dinoflagellates? Mine looks similar, but very stringy.

 

[GraviT]

@texasschott wrote:

I actually have quite a bit of water movement over the sand, so I don't think it's a flow issue.

 

[DaveJ]

Looks like diatoms, not dinos..... Turn your lights off for a couple of days and don't do any water changes until it disappears. Might consider a conch or two as well.

 

[GraviT]

@DaveJ wrote:

After doing some research and examination under a microscope, I believe it to be a combination of dinoflagellates and cyano (observed both free swimming, circular cells and long chain or "hair like" cells). I have a few conch already and they have stopped coming out of their shells lately, all of my scarlet hermits are MIA and my nassarius snails seem very lethargic when coming out for food. The toxins contained in some dinoflagellates are known to be harmful if not lethal to snails, inverts and potentially fish, so this would make sense. I've siphoned out as much as I could, raised my pH to 8.4, dialed the skimmer to skim more wet than usual, replaced my Phosban and increased the flow through the reactor, added a nice amount of high quality carbon and reprogrammed my timers to run halides for 4 hours a day without actinic (I'm currently having to switch a single MH ballast from one side of the tank to the other while I wait for Coralvue to repair or replace the other one). If that doesn't slow it down a bit, I'll take a step back and form another plan.

 

[DaveJ]

@GraviT wrote:

After doing some research and examination under a microscope, I believe it to be a combination of dinoflagellates and cyano (observed both free swimming, circular cells and long chain or "hair like" cells). I have a few conch already and they have stopped coming out of their shells lately, all of my scarlet hermits are MIA and my nassarius snails seem very lethargic when coming out for food. As the toxins contained in some dinoflagellates are known to be harmful if not lethal to snails, inverts and potentially fish so this makes sense. I've siphoned out as much as I could, raised my pH to 8.4, dialed the skimmer to skim more wet than usual, replaced my Phosban and increased the flow through the reactor, added a nice amount of high quality carbon and plan to reduce my lighting to about 4 hours a day. If that doesn't slow it down a bit, I'll take a step back and form another plan."]

Yep.. if your inverts are going, then dinos are the most likely thing. pH rises have had some success according to a few folks on RC that had them so thats a good start. Sounds like your doing everything that I know of.

Do you have any macros growing anywhere in the system to help pull the nutrients they may be utilizing to grow?

If you have a safe location that is dyno free, you might want to fish out your inverts and put them in there, like a fuge or sump to hopefully save them.

I know one guy had them for months and tried everything, including blacking his tank off with black plastic and running lights off for 4 or 5 days at a time, then on for a few in cycles. If I can find the links, I'll post them here for you.


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=988473&highlight=dino

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1052955&highlight=dino

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1052426&highlight=dino

 

[GraviT]

@DaveJ wrote:

I have a refugium that is packed with chaeto that I'm thinning out now (it's too dense and not enough light is penetrating to the bottom) and have already moved the conch down there.

 

[DaveJ]

@GraviT wrote:

I have a refugium that is packed with chaeto that I'm thinning out now (it's too dense and not enough light is penetrating to the bottom) and have already moved the conch down there."]


One of the things that Randy Farley pointed out was that even if you are not detecting any PO4 etc, its still possible its in your system since the Dinos can utilize it so quickly it won't be read by your tests. Take a look at those threads I listed above and you may get some additional ideas from them.

I wonder if a diatom filter will help pull out the free floating stuff... or if its too small to be caught by them. That may help some...

Keep us up to date with the progress... these are by far some of the most difficult things to get out of our systems so any successes you have could help others out.

 

[GraviT]

Thanks, lots of good reading there. I'm going to try the reduced photo period and try keeping the pH up with an aggressive kalk drip without my usual topoff system. If that fails, I'll go dark for a few days and start the kalk slurry method.

Boy, isn't this hobby fun sometimes? :roll:

 

[DaveJ]

@GraviT wrote:

Yeah I hear ya... had a RIO nuke my tank about a year and half ago... then had a long battle with macro algae that crusted over everything. Ended up breaking it all down and going 4-5 months without light. Everything is back up and running now and looks good so I count myself lucky.

Dinos and those isopods (the ones that suck your fish dry) are the worst things I can think of when it comes to this hobby. Aptasia, red bugs, flat worms... all are workable but those two take the prize.

Hang in there and keep up the fight, you'll be back to normal eventually!

 

[blide]

I had that in my fuge a couple of months ago. It seemed to never go away until I started a Kalk drip and added a phosban reactor.

 

[mylittlesquishy]

I have a diatom filter if you would like to borrow it. You will need to buy some powder as I am out.

Gail

 

[GraviT]

@Matt wrote:

Nope, I stopped using the Pappone at the first sign of cyano, but I'm sure that probably started this. Giving the deaths of snails and crabs and the appearance of the cells under a microscope, I am more inclined to think it's dino, but I most certainly hope it isn't! I'll see if I can find a silicate test around as it would be good to know in either case.

 

[GraviT]

Wow, keeping my pH at 8.4 is much harder than I thought. I raised it last night only to find it at 8.13 this morning. When I got home from work, it was at 8.04, so I hit it with a kalk slurry to bring it back up to spec around 9 pm. Right now, it's at 8.06 with a kalk drip! I can't drip the kalk very fast as I'm not evaporating enough water to keep up with the addition.

It's amazing we don't suffocate in this place, there must be lots of CO2 in the air!

 

[DaveJ]

@GraviT wrote:

Yeah those threads I posted said it was a chore.... do you have an air line that you can attach to your skimmer venturi and stick out a window to get some outside air??

You might want to mix a huge batch up and drip it consistently at a rate that keeps it up over the weekend while you can watch it.

I know one guy complained that he was dosing so much his pumps clogged up

How about direct 'washing' of the slurry to the effected spots, or at least the clear portions of the kalk drip solution? Try it in a few areas and see if it has an effect.

 

[GraviT]

Well, I've tried to keep the pH over 8.4 and managed to seize my return pump with the kalk slurry. Now I understand why that guy needed to clean his pumps every couple of days! I ran the tank with no light at all for 3 days which did make a dent in the stuff, but it's slowly coming back. I'm still only running my halides for 4 hours each side in hopes of keeping the stuff under control.

I can't run an airline outside (well, not in a way that my wife would allow) to keep the pH up due to the tank's location. I do still see traces of cyano and am considering a Chemi-Clean treatment to at least knock that bit out.

 

[GraviT]

I'm still fighting a losing battle with this stuff. I change my phosphate media every 2 weeks, skimming super wet with an ASM G4+, keep my 'fuge trimmed and happy, but nothing is working. I finally brought my lights back up to 6 hours a day as just about all of my SPS have browned out from the reduced light cycles. Every day when I come home, I just frown at the way the tank looks as it's all over the sand bed and rocks. Every evening, I use a baster to blast the rocks just to keep it from overtaking the corals. This stuff is so aggressive that if I stir up the sand and knock it down, it's literally back just the way it was in a matter of hours. Nitrates and Phosphates all test at 0.

I'm very close to giving up and don't know what else to do. HELP!!!

 

[DaveJ]

I don't know Kevin, you've tried just about everything that I have heard attempted. Did you try the lights out for 1-3 days at a time in sequence... go 1-3 days without, then 2 on, then 1-3 off etc?? Since the first 3 day lights out did knock it down, it may be a matter of doing it several times back to back to get it gone.

 

[bimmerzs]

@GraviT wrote:

I don't see where you went total lights out. I would wrap the tank and cut the lights for 3 day's and then see what that does. If you want to get super aggressive then see if anybody would babysit your coral's then wrap the tank and go lights out till that stuff is gone. You want to run a phos reactor during the lights out also. hth

Cheers!